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Gov't bulldozing 4closed homes?

By: moonlightcowboy, 9:46 PM GMT on August 08, 2009

Readers should consider this as the opinion of the author. In this case the author is simply presenting the question, based on past government actions, of whether we can expect to see something similar regarding housing - definitely food for thought. And, especially since there is considerable mention in political and economic circles that if a "good bank-bad bank" facility were set up, these toxic assets (which include foreclosed housing) could be destroyed by the government. Certainly, practices have already shown that the private sector will destroy these toxic assets, but with the likely aspect of a government-run toxic bank being set up, more are likely to postpone housing destruction until the taxpayer can pick up the tabs for the both the toxic loans and the responsibility of destroying the homes.


Cash for Clunkers Could Lead to Government Bulldozing Homes



A home being demolished in Flint, MI!


The National Inflation Association today released the following statement to its members:

"The United States government's "cash for clunkers" program, which was just expanded by $2 billion on Thursday, exemplifies the stupidity of politicians in Washington today. It's insane to think that destroying perfectly good and valuable assets, cars that people can drive, will help save our economy. This program is digging our economy into a deeper hole that we will never be able to dig out of.

We do not have an automobile crisis in the U.S., the average American household already has 2.3 cars. The automobile industry needed to collapse in order to build a new viable auto industry from the ground-floor. By artificially boosting car sales, the government is preventing the free market from cleaning out the excesses in the industry.

During the Great Depression, millions of Americans couldn't afford to buy food. With food prices falling and huge surpluses of food building, the government decided to pass the Agricultural Adjustment Act of 1933 which forced farmers to destroy crops and livestock in an attempt to artificially drive up food prices. The plan backfired and led to millions of Americans starving, prolonging the Great Depression for another six years.

The current financial crisis in America was caused by both the U.S. government and American people getting into too much debt. Not only is the government getting deeper into debt by purchasing used cars for $4,500 and destroying them, but Americans are being forced to get deeper into debt to buy new cars. The used cars being purchased and destroyed were owned by Americans outright. The free market would've encouraged Americans to drive these cars until they stopped working, while rebuilding their savings. The government is preventing this from happening and doing greater damage to the economy.

Four out of the top five models of new cars being purchased as part of "cash for clunkers" are foreign cars. Therefore, very little of this newly printed money is going to the bailed out U.S. automobile manufacturers. We are increasing our trade deficit with Japan and other foreign countries at a time when we should be manufacturing cars that we export to the rest of the world, so that we can shrink our trade deficit.

With all of the new government employees being hired to administrate "cash for clunkers", the true cost is over $6,000 per car. Most modern day economists featured by the mainstream media say "cash for clunkers" will be a huge boost to the economy, because it will help lower unemployment and increase our GDP. It's amazing how they can phrase the program as a success, when it is only leading our country further down the path of hyperinflation. The misguided and irresponsible phrase in the mainstream media will encourage politicians to come up with more stupid programs for other so-called crises.

Real Estate prices in America still haven't fallen to below year 2000 levels because the banks that are foreclosing on properties are sitting on these properties and not selling them(FOOTNOTE). After banks get the required infrastructure and manpower in place and begin selling them, Real Estate prices will fall to unimaginably low levels. Will the government repeat their mistakes with the Agricultural Adjustment Act of 1933 and "cash for clunkers" and begin purchasing these houses from banks only to bulldoze them?

There have already been isolated cases in places such as Victorville, California, where banks have destroyed nearly complete new homes instead of completing and selling them. In Flint, Michigan, local government officials are promoting "the concept of shrinking Flint in order to make it stronger", by bulldozing 40% of the community. What is to stop the federal government from destroying already built existing homes, to prevent them from becoming listed on the market? It sounds like insanity, and it is, but if the government destroyed food and is now destroying cars, houses are likely next."

SOURCE: National Inflation Association

The National Inflation Association is an organization that is dedicated to preparing Americans for hyperinflation. The NIA offers free membership at http://www.inflation.us and provides its members with articles about the economy and inflation, news stories, important charts not shown by the mainstream media; YouTube videos featuring Jim Rogers, Marc Faber, Ron Paul, Peter Schiff, and others; and profiles of gold, silver, and agriculture companies that we believe could prosper in an inflationary environment.


FOOTNOTE: That is until the "good bank-bad bank" scenario is set up by the government; then, US taxpayers will likely be paying for these homes to be destroyed. Ironically, taxpayers were ultimately the ones paying to have many of them built, too! Go figure!

HIGHLY RECOMMENDED READING: Sebastionjer's blog - "Life Is Not A Theory!" and GetReal's blog - "Obama Healthcare Truth"

U.S. may need another $250,000,000,000 stimulus - Roubini
"It might be in the $200-$250 billion range -- not too small, not too big," he added. But if the next stimulus is too large, Roubini warned, financial markets would start to get worried about U.S. fiscal sustainability, with "severe" negative consequences for bond markets.

Unemployment nears 21 percent
Junk message in a bottle?
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Reader Comments

Homes foreclosed, homes and communities being bulldozed - take your pick
Search foreclosures by state here.
Top ten worst foreclosure states:

1. Nevada
2. Arizona
3. Florida
4. California
5. Utah
6. Georgia
7. Michigan
8. Illinois
9. Idaho
10. Colorado
This is nothing new, and history repeats...

Look into Secretary of Agriculture, Henry A. Wallace's pig kill.(c1930'S)....while people starved we killed and destroyed good meat...
Sad to say - I think this may be the beginning......

Stupid is a Real thing -- amazing how much of we have these days.....
The bulldozing, I think, has leveled off somewhat since the spring when the banks just figured they'd wait and let the taxpayers pay for it through the "good bank-bad bank" scenario that will likely be set up soon by the government; then, US taxpayers will be paying for these homes to be destroyed. Ironically, taxpayers will ultimately be the ones who paid to have them built and destroyed, too! Go figure!

...meanwhile, the banks come out smelling like roses!
Quoting surfmom:
Sad to say - I think this may be the beginning......

Stupid is a Real thing -- amazing how much of we have these days.....


SM, true. I was just saying - one can do something about ignorance, but nothing one can do for stupidity.

There are only three kinds of people in the world:

1. Wise person - learns from others' mistakes.
2. Fool - learns from his own mistakes.
3. Dayum Fool - never learns anything.

Unfortunately, there are way too many of number 3.
It is sad..I must agree...the only upside(if there is one)is that people who bought homes that they could afford to pay for...will regain some of what they have lost in lowering property values over the last couple of years...ya gotta feel for the ones that have lost their homes though...even if they were some of the ones that bought out of their means
Quoting mobal:
This is nothing new, and history repeats...

Look into Secretary of Agriculture, Henry A. Wallace's pig kill.(c1930'S)....while people starved we killed and destroyed good meat...


We're doing some stupid crap, Mobal. HC, C&T, etc - by best official estimates 14,000,000 unemployed (really lots more) and we're not even remotely talking about jobs, which would cure much of our other ills. Of course, I know with you I'm preachin' to the choir.
Quoting auburn:
It is sad..I must agree...the only upside(if there is one)is that people who bought homes that they could afford to pay for...will regain some of what they have lost in lowering property values over the last couple of years...ya gotta feel for the ones that have lost their homes though...even if they were some of the ones that bought out of their means


Aub, please explain how they are going to regain the previous values of these homes?
Quoting moonlightcowboy:


Aub, please explain how they are going to regain the previous values of these homes?


Simple economics MLC...supply and demand
Quoting auburn:


Simple economics MLC...supply and demand


At the same time those that lost their house have less options.....
Quoting mobal:


At the same time those that lost their house have less options.....


I agree..I guess its time we start lowering our standards and live within our means
Quoting auburn:


Simple economics MLC...supply and demand


That's a simple economic theory - we all basically understand that principle. But, plz, do specifically share how you think these homes will regain their values? How?
Quoting mobal:


At the same time those that lost their house have less options.....

I guess they can live in their new cars from the clunkers program? ;)
Also those that lost jobs will have to pay more of what they do not have.......destroying assets, be it cars, houses or pigs will not help IMO.
Quoting auburn:


I agree..I guess its time we start lowering our standards and live within our means


Now that's a revolutionary idea, Aub! Would you mind blogging about that and suggest it to Congress, this and future POTUS administrations and other voters? Certainly, both parties need to undertand this epiphany of yours.
Quoting mobal:
Also those that lost jobs will have to pay more of what they do not have.......destroying assets, be it cars, houses or pigs will not help IMO.


I know this sounds sort of silly, (lol, so forgive me), but until there is real expansion, there can only be contraction. Contraction perpetuates contraction.
Living a bit below our means is what I was taught! SAVE UP!
Really though, I remember getting mail that I am approved for 4 and $500,000 houses....no damn way I could or want to even try....
Quoting moonlightcowboy:


Now that's a revolutionary idea, Aub! Would you mind blogging about that and suggest it to Congress, this and future POTUS administrations and other voters? Certainly, both parties need to undertand this epiphany of yours.


People are set in their ways and have their answers... and and thats just the way it is...not willing to listen
"I agree..I guess its time we start lowering our standards and live within our means"

What is this WE crap?

I have done that all of my life,
the VAST majority of people in this country
did that.

It was only a MINORITY of people that could not
pay their mortgages, etc

And the VAST MAJORITY of people in this country
were penalize and had to pay for it.

The only reason the vast majority of responsible people
in this country need to lower their standards

is because we have a government that is putting us
all in debt, running up debt while their is no tax
revenue coming in to cover it, driving up inflation,

and a government that is not living within it's means.

Quoting latitude25:
"I agree..I guess its time we start lowering our standards and live within our means"

What is this WE crap?

I have done that all of my life,
the VAST majority of people in this country
did that.

It was only a MINORITY of people that could not
pay their mortgages, etc

And the VAST MAJORITY of people in this country
were penalize and had to pay for it.

The only reason the vast majority of responsible people
in this country need to lower their standards

is because we have a government that is putting us
all in debt, running up debt while their is no tax
revenue coming in to cover it, driving up inflation,

and a government that is not living within it's means.



WE...as In WE the people...please don't write things in where there is nothing...this is a civil discussion here..I wont scrutinize your grammar and I wish you would afford me the same.
Quoting auburn:


WE...as In WE the people...please don't write things in where there is nothing...this is a civil discussion here..I wont scrutinize your grammar and I wish you would afford me the same.


I am intelligent enough to know what you are saying
Aub, you figured out how those home values are going to go back up yet?
Quoting moonlightcowboy:
Aub, you figured out how those home values are going to go back up yet?


12. auburn 5:34 PM CDT on August 08, 2009

Quoting moonlightcowboy:


Aub, please explain how they are going to regain the previous values of these homes?



Simple economics MLC...supply and demand
Quoting auburn:


12. auburn 5:34 PM CDT on August 08, 2009

Quoting moonlightcowboy:


Aub, please explain how they are going to regain the previous values of these homes?



Simple economics MLC...supply and demand


Aub, I'm asking "you" what "you" think will get these home values back up. Plz, don't give me some ECO101 text book term without a definition. I'd like to know exactly what you think could make values increase, plz. Thanks.
"We the people" what Aub?

We should lower our standards and live within Our means?

The vast majority of people in this country were doing exactly that.

I'm living within my means and resent having to lower
my standards because I played by the rules,
was responsible, did plan ahead.

That is right out of the communist/socialist playbook.

Reduce everyone down to the lowest common denominator.
Quoting moonlightcowboy:


Aub, I'm asking "you" what "you" think will get these home values back up. Plz, don't give me some ECO101 text book term without a definition. I'd like to know exactly what you think could make values increase, plz. Thanks.


Well basing my theory on your blog...if they Bulldoze these foreclosed property...there will be fewer houses on the market(supply)that should drive the price of the remaining homes up closer to their true value ...less product on the market to meet demand...
Quoting auburn:


Well basing my theory on your blog...if they Bulldoze these foreclosed property...there will be fewer houses on the market(supply)that should drive the price of the remaining homes up closer to their true value ...less product on the market to meet demand...


Good. Thanks. Now, do you see how we are being manipulated? Manipulated by the FED, by certain Congressional insiders? How we're being unduly taxed to pay for these other folks to get rich? And, how they do it all over again and again? With this program, with that program?
Quoting latitude25:
"We the people" what Aub?

We should lower our standards and live within Our means?

The vast majority of people in this country were doing exactly that.

I'm living within my means and resent having to lower
my standards because I played by the rules,
was responsible, did plan ahead.

That is right out of the communist/socialist playbook.

Reduce everyone down to the lowest common denominator.


I wasn't trying to say you didnt live within your means...come on Lat...you are smarter than that...it was a generalized statement that was aimed at the people who were living out of their means...the ones that made 40.000 a year and lived in a 500.000 house just because the bank said they qualified for that much...it wasnt meant personal towards you
Quoting moonlightcowboy:


Good. Thanks. Now, do you see how we are being manipulated? Manipulated by the FED, by certain Congressional insiders? How we're being unduly taxed to pay for these other folks to get rich? And, how they do it all over again and again? With this program, with that program?


Explain it to me...I dont mean that as a smart remark either
Quoting auburn:


Well basing my theory on your blog...if they Bulldoze these foreclosed property...there will be fewer houses on the market(supply)that should drive the price of the remaining homes up closer to their true value ...less product on the market to meet demand...


See what you think about this, Aub:

What about 50% of mortgages could be underwater six quarters from now?

There are currently about 50 million mortgages in this country of which 16 million are underwater. Five million more have zero or little equity so that if they were to sell, the 3-6% realtor's commission would force them to bring money to closing. That works out to 42% that are currently underwater, or soon will be.

Given the 9.5% default rate on loans in California alone, foreclosures will drive down prices in bubble markets for the next 12-15 months. This will adversely impact bank balance sheets requiring further government bailouts and result in curtailed mortgage lending. If mortgage rates continue to rise and the 8% housing credit expires, buyer purchasing power will drop, driving home prices further downward.

Also, recent home price stability is, at best, seasonal. The Case-Shiller seasonally adjusted numbers actually showed a MOM decline in June from the May numbers. And the YOY decline rate remains in double digits. Prices should start to drop dramatically after the peak selling season ends in August. So, 50% underwater by 2011? I don't know how we can avoid it.



If they bulldoze an awful lot of homes to drive the value back up of homes with people living in them and paying their mortgages, maybe at least there will be enough space for other folks to pitch tents who will be out of jobs and out of their homes.
Too much to read while fixing dinner. But All I can add is the more gov manipulation the more unintended consequences.
Quoting moonlightcowboy:


See what you think about this, Aub:

What about 50% of mortgages could be underwater six quarters from now?

There are currently about 50 million mortgages in this country of which 16 million are underwater. Five million more have zero or little equity so that if they were to sell, the 3-6% realtor’s commission would force them to bring money to closing. That works out to 42% that are currently underwater, or soon will be.

Given the 9.5% default rate on loans in California alone, foreclosures will drive down prices in bubble markets for the next 12-15 months. This will adversely impact bank balance sheets requiring further government bailouts and result in curtailed mortgage lending. If mortgage rates continue to rise and the 8% housing credit expires, buyer purchasing power will drop, driving home prices further downward.

Also, recent home price stability is, at best, seasonal. The Case-Shiller seasonally adjusted numbers actually showed a MOM decline in June from the May numbers. And the YOY decline rate remains in double digits. Prices should start to drop dramatically after the peak selling season ends in August. So, 50% underwater by 2011? I don’t know how we can avoid it.



If they bulldoze an awful lot of homes to drive the value back up of homes with people living in them and paying their mortgages, at least there will be enough space for folks to pitch tents since they'll be out of jobs and out of their homes.


Well this has been coming...I don't know about where you are...but here we are over built and in some cases still building homes..the market is saturated with new builds and forecloses...with that much competition on the market to sell and make loans on homes the price has no choice but to go down...I dont see this as a government conspiracy to get more taxes from you no matter who is in office..its just that the market tanked in a recession that added to the situation...why the building of new home is continuing in some places I have no idea.




and might I add that from reading the post your header that the dustruction of these homes was the decision of the banks handling them.

The bank that repossessed the property said that clearing the rubble instead of putting more money into the homes that hadn't been completed was the cheapest fix.

Victorville residents like Brooke Bollinger have watched for weeks as a 16-unit neighborhood was flattened. Four completed model homes, along with a dozen homes still under construction, have been bulldozed in the last three weeks.
that's why I research so much...there is always more to the story than the first article you read
I dont see this as a government conspiracy to get more taxes from you no matter who is in office..its just that the market tanked in a recession that added to the situation...

Will you agree that it was caused largely in part by manipulation of repeated low interest rates? Will you agree that congressional leaders put pressure on lenders to make bad loans, but gave them a way out by the purchase of those bad loans through Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac? Will you agree that someone has to pay for those bad loans? Who do you think that will be?
We have two very desperate needs in the country. Create JOBS! Real ones, not government jobs paid for by taxpayers. And Reduce The Cost Of Health Care! Real reductions, not deficit-neutral ones but real reductions in our expectations for services and perfectionism in our providers.

There's no one path or decision that got us here. I blame Sam Walton as much as I blame Alan Greenspan. Blame and finger pointer doesn't help us move forward -- which we must do -- but looking back and trying to decipher the path and forks that brought this house of cards to the brink of tumbling down is a very necessary exercise.
and here is the story on flint that the article mentioned
Link
The key findings of this study are:
• Vacant structure fires represented 40% of the Department’s structure fire volume.
• The Department’s injury rate at vacant structure fires is more than triple the national average reported by the National Fire Protection Association.
• 62% of the Department’s fireground injuries occurred at vacant structures fires.
• 79% of the cost from fireground injuries resulted from fires at vacant structures.
• 93% of the cost of injuries at fires in vacant structures occurred in buildings that were unsecured when firefighters arrived
Might I add that I find it interesting that they neglected to include the information and reasons in the story in your header...its almost as if they are trying to deceive people...good thing we are smart enough to research it and not come out looking like them folks in line three of the 3 kinds of people...LOL
Quoting ILwatcher:
We have two very desperate needs in the country. Create JOBS! Real ones, not government jobs paid for by taxpayers. And Reduce The Cost Of Health Care! Real reductions, not deficit-neutral ones but real reductions in our expectations for services and perfectionism in our providers.

There's no one path or decision that got us here. I blame Sam Walton as much as I blame Alan Greenspan. Blame and finger pointer doesn't help us move forward -- which we must do -- but looking back and trying to decipher the path and forks that brought this house of cards to the brink of tumbling down is a very necessary exercise.


AMEN...I also blame the unions ...many areas have based their economy on the over average pay scale of union jobs...and when the jobs left the area the people there went able to meet the cost they were confronted with of course there is lots of blame to be passed around...this is just an example
And a third desperate need -- stop deficit spending at both the individual and government levels. The only deficit spending I can endorse right now is business. They've got to be able to borrow money to bring industry back to a sustainable enterprise.
Quoting moonlightcowboy:
I dont see this as a government conspiracy to get more taxes from you no matter who is in office..its just that the market tanked in a recession that added to the situation...

Will you agree that it was caused largely in part by manipulation of repeated low interest rates? Will you agree that congressional leaders put pressure on lenders to make bad loans, but gave them a way out by the purchase of those bad loans through Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac? Will you agree that someone has to pay for those bad loans? Who do you think that will be?


MLC that sounds reasonable to me...but I cant agree with it right now because I haven researched it yet...but I will
Agreed on the impact of the unions, aub. The list is much longer than the Fed, health care costs, the Walmart business model, globalization, and unions but we (the individual WEs) must stop shouting each other down and start talking.

I'd add professional politicians and political parties to the list...
E D I T

Quoting ILwatcher:
We have two very desperate needs in the country. Create JOBS! Real ones, not government jobs paid for by taxpayers. And Reduce The Cost Of Health Care! Real reductions, not deficit-neutral ones but real reductions in our expectations for services and perfectionism in our providers.

There's no one path or decision that got us here. I blame Sam Walton as much as I blame Alan Greenspan. Blame and finger pointer doesn't help us move forward -- which we must do -- but looking back and trying to decipher the path and forks that brought this house of cards to the brink of tumbling down is a very necessary exercise.


IL, I will totally agree with the JOBS thing. I think you and everyone else that visits here largely knows how I think on that subject. Then, why aren't we talking about jobs? Sam Walton? Well, probably not him specifically, but maybe. More than likely it was the corporate board of directors after his death. And, that too, does point to by and large a "single path" through government who sets trade policy. Yes, in this case, yes, I think we can truly blame government.

And, I agree with rising healthcare costs, but DO we need to commit to spending (keeps climbing each week) now nearly $2,000,000,000,000 to replace a system that already covers 85 percent of the people already. Instead, let's just stop pending - a novel idea? Sure. Do not spend more than last year's budget. In fact, cut all government spending across the board by 10 percent. If Americans have to tighten their belts, so should the government, especially government. Then, revisit waste, duplication and outright fraud and corruption in the system. Clean it out - use the real and substantial savings to help those that truly need it. I mean, that alone buys a ton of medical care. What about $500,000,000 for three congressional jets? Folks could say "leave Afghanistan or Iraq" and that would help - yup, it could. Lots of things we can do now to help those that need it now without reinventing a new bureaucratic wheel or undoubtedly and inevitably raising more and more taxes on fewer and fewer, especially with a massively contracting economy and consequently tax revenues.
Quoting auburn:
Might I add that I find it interesting that they neglected to include the information and reasons in the story in your header...its almost as if they are trying to deceive people...good thing we are smart enough to research it and not come out looking like them folks in line three of the 3 kinds of people...LOL


LOL, Aub. There is a "?" mark in the header - the header is designed to make "you" think!
Quoting moonlightcowboy:
I dont see this as a government conspiracy to get more taxes from you no matter who is in office..its just that the market tanked in a recession that added to the situation...

Will you agree that it was caused largely in part by manipulation of repeated low interest rates? Will you agree that congressional leaders put pressure on lenders to make bad loans, but gave them a way out by the purchase of those bad loans through Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac? Will you agree that someone has to pay for those bad loans? Who do you think that will be?

**sigh**
Quoting auburn:


MLC that sounds reasonable to me...but I cant agree with it right now because I haven researched it yet...but I will


You do that. Research it, or you can just look under that hen's wing! ;) Or, I guess you take Obama's word for it! LMAO, or a few other of these whackos around here.
Aub, yes, we will have to pay for it - those that work and carry the load.

Where is the government program for us?

All of these government programs for people that didn't play by the rules and were not responsible, are going to totally destroy the rest of us, all of our savings (401Ks dropped by 1/2 or better in many cases), etc.

Everything we have worked our whole lives to become is being ripped from us to pay for more government programs to help those that didn't make the effort or weren't responsible, or were plain out crooks and manipulated the system - and still got rich.

Aub, what happens when the government borrows so much that it can't collect enough taxes, even if taxes were 75 percent of income, to pay for government operation and services? What then?
mlc, I've gotta go not burn dinner but I want to continue with the points in 47. I'm sure you've had blogs on trade agreements in the past but can you highlight for me why you think Americans willing to shop at Walmart for a few cents per item, effectively putting mom and pop out of business and becoming Walmart employees is the result of trade agreements? I'm not saying it isn't, but I think we consumers have a responsibility in this mess too.
Quoting ILwatcher:
And a third desperate need -- stop deficit spending at both the individual and government levels. The only deficit spending I can endorse right now is business. They've got to be able to borrow money to bring industry back to a sustainable enterprise.


IL, I appreciate your thoughts on that, but I'm not quite in that camp really. I agree somewhat, to some extent (with other measures-not the way they are doing it), but moreso by government really just getting out of the way - that is, after canceling or substantially renegotiating our so-called "free trade" policies. With some incentives for entrepreneurship and local expansion, American ingenuity will rise once again to the top!
gotta eat...bbl
Okay, so now that we are pumping billions into the cash for clunkers program...What happens next...Now, with all these new cars on the roads at the same time...Who is going to be buying cars now??? What are we going to do to get the next round sold???...Maybe Osbama should make a new law that everyone has to buy a new car every year or so and let the government pay the tab...How fun would that be??? Just kidding of course...
MLC - you have the patience of a saint. :)
"Where is the government program for us?"

We're waiting.

Where is the government 'reward' program for the
vast majority of people that paid their bills,
the vast majority of people that paid their mortgages,
the vast majority of people that not only paid their health care but like it,
and the vast majority of people that saved money?

Where is the played by the rules and were responsible
government reward program
for the vast majority of people?

Now they are the ones getting screwed

I'm tired of this administration saying there are
50 million people without health insurance,
so they are going to screw with the 250 million
people that not only have health insurance but like
what they have.
Quoting latitude25:
"Where is the government program for us?"

We're waiting.

Where is the government 'reward' program for the
vast majority of people that paid their bills,
the vast majority of people that paid their mortgages,
the vast majority of people that not only paid their health care but like it,
and the vast majority of people that saved money?

Where is the played by the rules and were responsible
government reward program
for the vast majority of people?

Now they are the ones getting screwed

I'm tired of this administration saying there are
50 million people without health insurance,
so they are going to screw with the 250 million
people that not only have health insurance but like
what they have.


have you read the bill?
Aub, yes.

I know we both speak southeren, but what in this world does
reading the bill(s) have to do with what I said?

Quoting latitude25:
Aub, yes.

I know we both speak southeren, but what in this world does
reading the bill(s) have to do with what I said?



Well what you said is covered in the bill
Quoting ILwatcher:
mlc, I've gotta go not burn dinner but I want to continue with the points in 47. I'm sure you've had blogs on trade agreements in the past but can you highlight for me why you think Americans willing to shop at Walmart for a few cents per item, effectively putting mom and pop out of business and becoming Walmart employees is the result of trade agreements? I'm not saying it isn't, but I think we consumers have a responsibility in this mess too.


A large part of that blame will have to go towards our policy of continuing to borrow money for programs and services we can't afford. Inflation has outpaced wages. The value of the dollar has shrunk tremendously.

Ok, Wal-Mart for cheaper shopping? Let's see, this is a rough, ackward analogy but look at it like this: If you put a bowl of water in front of a thirsty dog, what will he do? Drink right! Or, how about this: I've always heard that a lock was for an honest man, not a crook. The crook will get in no matter the lock if he wants. I'm not saying Wal-Mart shoppers are dogs or crooks, lol. The comparison is simply meant to imply that if we make it easy, that's what we'll get. And that's what we've done!

Obviously, the same applies to government. When people can elect people for the purpose of making things easier for themselves to benefit off the work of others, we've gotten things out-of-whack!

Probably not many know there is a huge foreign lobby in Washington. Huge! So, to be more specific about trade policies it isn't extremely difficult to discern what happens. Is it? Ok, I'll try to explain. Foreign lobby says come to China, we'll manufacture your gizmos for you, build here, we'll help you, we'll provide cheap labor and sell it back to you Americans cheaper than you can make it there. Then, the same thing happens both ways with domestic lobby to go in that direction as well. And, it's just not manufacturing - it's banking, insurance, etc, too.

Unfortunately, with many nations and especially China, that ping pong has gone on with such a ferociousnes and that intertwined relationship has yielded a such a perverse imbalance of trade and finance that it has all but bankrupted us. That all may sound very simple, but that's an accurate picture. Hardly all of it, but accurate.



Meanwhile, the Congressional crooks are kind of like Duke & Duke in Trading Places - no matter who wins or loses, no matter who makes money or loses money - they all get stinking rich and powerful.

This is from a non-partisan source of facts, information, and analysis for policymakers, the media, the health care community, and the public. Our product is information, always provided free of charge – from the most sophisticated policy research, to basic facts and numbers, to information young people can use to improve their health or elderly people can use to understand their Medicare benefits.


Side-by-Side Comparison of Major Health Care Reform Proposals (Updated)

This interactive side-by-side compares the leading comprehensive reform proposals by the President and members of Congress across a number of key characteristics and plan components.
this is from the same group as the post above

Explaining the Basics of Health Reform

These resources help explain the major issues and concepts involved in the current health reform debate, as well as context and background information about the nation’s existing health care system and programs.
Aub, I don't mind the occasional HC post as it refers to the overall discussion here, but I'd rather any detailed discussion move to GR's blog or elsewhere.

I'm against the bill in every capacity; so, it does no good to post detailed info here. Thanks.
Quoting conchygirl:
MLC - you have the patience of a saint. :)





...most of the time, but I can lose my cool occasionally, too!
Quoting ajcamsmom2:
Okay, so now that we are pumping billions into the cash for clunkers program...What happens next...Now, with all these new cars on the roads at the same time...Who is going to be buying cars now??? What are we going to do to get the next round sold???...Maybe Osbama should make a new law that everyone has to buy a new car every year or so and let the government pay the tab...How fun would that be??? Just kidding of course...


Ajcamsom, now I understand that the clunker program is costing $6,000 per car! Hhhhmmm, and I guess that's what we know about, huh? And, I don't guess that counts the interest we're going to have to pay on that borrowed money for those cars (btw, which 4 of 5 purchased are said to be "foreign" cars)! I wonder where that money goes and who it largely serves? Back to China? Japan? Germany? Yup, I guess we need to help those economies out that are loaning us all that money, huh? ;)

I wonder how long it will be before we have to give GGM more money? Or even Ford after they get through their huge monthly cash burns after their borrowed money runs out?
Quoting moonlightcowboy:
Aub, I don't mind the occasional HC post as it refers to the overall discussion here, but I'd rather any detailed discussion move to GR's blog or elsewhere.

I'm against the bill in every capacity; so, it does no good to post detailed info here. Thanks.


sorry that info was meant for lat...I will move on...you guys have a good night and I enjoyed it!
Quoting auburn:


sorry that info was meant for lat...I will move on...you guys have a good night and I enjoyed it!


I know. No worries. Thanks. Yup, twas good (I think). You have a good sleep, too!
Wow! We've got a new "Dis-information Czar" now! LOL.

- she works at the White House, Linda Douglass.
morning! ;-)
G'morning, Lat!

Have a good Sunday! :)
BLOG RULES: Simple - Keep it absolutely civil towards fellow bloggers.

But yet you feel the need to call me and others a "Obama-loving, lack of fiscal-responsibiliy liberal congressional geniuses"
GR, that's clearing warning signs of unsustainability. If the federal government's budget deficit grew by that much in July, imagine what is going on at the state and local levels! It will take another stimulus of billions, perhaps trillions, just to keep government afloat - much less the economy!

The fracture is about to rip wide open!
Wow! The Messiah is still supporting ousted Chavez puppet, Honduran ex-president Zelaya! Unbelievable! Despite the outpouring and sentiment of the Honduran people.

What an igmo!
Afternoon MLC. Hope you had a great weekend.
His support of Zelaya is just another example of this clown's belief in socialism. His track record demonstrating that is becoming more frequent. Hardly a week, or even a few days go by that he is unable to not disclose those beliefs because of his arrogant, pathological narcissist behavior.
Quoting conchygirl:
Afternoon MLC. Hope you had a great weekend.


Hey, CG! Yes, fairly nice. Thanks. Hope yours was too.

I tell you, I did enjoy helping point out that this healthcare bill the way it is written now will allow taxpayer-funded abortion. We haven't yet seen the division this hc bill is going to create yet in this country. The next two three weeks will be unreal. The fracture has already occured and it is beginning to rip us further apart! And, we can thank The Messiah for that!

...trouble times straight ahead! Not to mention that the debt ceiling has been raised in an emergency to borrow more money just to keep government operating - much less the economy!
Quoting moonlightcowboy:


Hey, CG! Yes, fairly nice. Thanks. Hope yours was too.

I tell you, I did enjoy helping point out that this healthcare bill the way it is written now will allow taxpayer-funded abortion. We haven't yet seen the division this hc bill is going to create yet in this country. The next two three weeks will be unreal. The fracture has already occured and it is beginning to rip us further apart! And, we can thank The Messiah for that!

...trouble times straight ahead! Not to mention that the debt ceiling has been raised in an emergency to borrow more money just to keep government operating - much less the economy!


That can't be, He is the great unifier.
A few related tertiary items aside from the large scale fundamental economic items.


Got a good deal on a clunk trade, not as good as you think

If your gonna clunk, do it right!
61. Behind Providence Medical Center in Anchorage, Wal-Mart is the largest employer in Alaska. Of course, the fed outstrips them all because of NPS/BLM/BIA/FWS/MMS and a hundred other agencies that are up here along with the Army, Coast Guard, yadda, yadda, But.... Wal-Mart? No.2 private employer in Alaska? How the blazes did THAT happen???
Good stuff, Oss!

- JM, don't get me started on Wal-Mart! ;)
Hello MLC! Thought this was interesting:

CASH FOR CLUNKERS: TRADE IN AMERICAN; BUY FOREIGN
By DICK MORRIS & EILEEN MCGANN

Published on DickMorris.com on August 10, 2009

The only part of the stimulus program that is working, the cash-for-clunkers program is, in reality, a subsidy to foreign car companies, proving that Barack Obama is the best president Japan ever had.

The Department of Transportation reports that the ten leading trade-ins are all American branded cars while six of the top ten new cars purchased - and four of the top five - are foreign. So the United States Senate is about to pass additional funds to subsidize the trade-in of American cars and the purchase of foreign cars.

DOT reports that the following are the ten top trade-ins, all American:

Ten Top Trade-Ins Under Cash for Clunkers

1. Ford Explorer
2. Ford F150 Pickup 2WD
3. Jeep Grand Cherokee 4 WD
4. Jeep Cherokee 4 WD
5. Dodge Caravan/Grand Caravan
6. Chevrolet Blazer 4 WD
7. Ford Explorer 2 WD
8. Ford F150 Pickup 4 WD
9. Chevrolet C1500 Pickup 2 WD
10. Ford Windstar FWD Van

And the top ten new car purchases, subsidized by the American taxpayer, are mainly foreign vehicles:

Top Ten New Car Purchases: Cash for Clunkers

1. Toyota Corolla
2. Ford Focus FWD
3. Honda Civic
4. Toyota Prius
5. Toyota Camry
6. Ford Escape FWD
7. Hyndai Elantra
8. Dodge Caliber
9. Honda Fit
10. Chevrolet Cobalt

It is a violation of the World Trade Organization rules to enact a public subsidy program and skew it toward only domestically produced products, so the Congress has no choice but to extend the program to all comers. No choice, that is, but to not spend the money in the first place.

Cash for Clunkers will do wonders for the Japanese economy, but its impact on the US job situation is problematic. This unintended consequence is a great illustration of what happens when the blunt tool of government subsidy is applied to the fine tuning of a free market economy. Government planners keep getting it wrong. That's why socialism is such a bad idea.

So Obama can boast of a great success in taking American cars off the road and replacing them with foreign cars. Great going!



If the FED continues to purchase treasuries, this is simply just monetizing the debt more and more. It will cause rates to increase and cause inflation. This weekend we heard that Geithner has asked Congress to raise the debt ceiling above 12 trillion now. With all of the shortfalls in revenue due to layoffs and other contraction, it's going to take another big funding bill to just keep government operating. Trouble is ahead, no doubt; otherwise, they wouldn't be asking to raise the ceiling on the debt! When does this madness stop and when do we start dealing with the hard choices - and start cutting spending and other programs?
88. Yup, JuneB! Exactly! Of course, Japan holds much of our debt too - we wouldn't want them to stop buying our debt so we can keep our government propped up, now would we? That's what's happening!

And, it's also why I've been repeatedly saying that we have to do away with or renegotiate these so-called "free-trade" policies. They are slanted to benefit our trading partners - nearly all of them, not us.
...worth the full read.


Fed nervous about an early recovery call

Suddenly, it seems, economists everywhere are starting to talk about the end of the recession. But don't expect the economists at the Federal Reserve to join in that bullish banter when they meet this week. "I think we're arriving at the turn," said Mark Zandi, chief economist at Moody's Economy.com. "I think we'll reach it this month, maybe September, but we'll look back and say this is the quarter the recession ended."

But Zandi and other Fed watchers say that when central bank policymakers conclude a two-day meeting Wednesday, they are likely to stay with its far more general language about expecting modest growth to return sometime in the second half of this year. The central bank's policymakers also are virtually certain to leave the key interest rate near zero.

They also are unlikely to give many details about when or how it will start to pull back the roughly $1 trillion expansion of the Fed's balance sheet that it has used to pump money into the economy over the last year.
MLC...they bulldozed homes out here in Calif too....

what a mess....

can we have a do-over? All hands in favor of a do-over?
Amy, I think several of us would like a few mulligans! ;)
MLC, just saw the "hockey stick " graph, in a meeting earlier, on the US dollars out there. It was amazing how much we printed in the last 6 months. I will try to find it later. Unless someone has it handy :)
Quoting Ossqss:
MLC, just saw the "hockey stick " graph, in a meeting earlier, on the US dollars out there. It was amazing how much we printed in the last 6 months. I will try to find it later. Unless someone has it handy :)





This is just through April 1, 2009.
U.S. job growth unlikely in the next year: Conference Board

NEW YORK (Reuters) - A gauge of the U.S. job market remained unchanged in July for the third straight month, indicating that employment will remain weak throughout the coming year, a research group said on Monday.

The Conference Board, a private research group, said its Employment Trends Index was steady at 88.3 in July, the same level it read for the gauge's May and June revised figures. The index is now down 20.1 percent from a year ago, according to the group.

"This suggests that we are getting closer to the point when employers are no longer cutting their workforce," said Gad Levanon, senior economist at The Conference Board. "However, since we are expecting a weak economic recovery, and given the record number of involuntary part-time workers -- many of whom are likely to move to full-time positions before new employees are hired -- we do not expect significant job growth over the next year."



...pretty much an understatement.
95, that is the hockey stick I saw earlier. Here is a good read on our current monetary senario from today.

Inflation, Deflation, or
What Have They Done to the Currency?
Photobucket

The above chart is proof enough of banks' unwillingness to lend and/or credit worthy individuals and businesses unwillingness to borrow.
"can we have a do-over? All hands in favor of a do-over?"

hand

First our president tells us how irresponsible WE were,
ran up credit cards, bought houses WE could not afford,
did not have health insurance, etc.

When the fact is, most people are responsible.
Most people did not run up debt, most people paid their mortgages,
and most people are responsible, had savings, and have health insurance
and are happy with the health insurance they have.

Then he tells those same people that they will have to pay,
to bail out the minority of people that were not responsible.

Then he tells the vast majority of people that are responsible
that he is going to reform the health care system.
But reform is the trick word.
It's not reform, no system in place is being reformed
it's a complete new system.

Then when that same vast majority of people that are responsible
complain about it.....

...Our president tells them they should shut up and
get out of the way.

The vast majority who are responsible.
"Where is the government program for us?"

Exactly right.

Ever since these clowns took office, it's been
one reward program after the other for crooks
and criminals.

And these bozos are sticking it to the vast
majority of people that are responsible.
Hey, Lat. Could you tell us how you really feel? ;)


...I'm with you 100 percent!
What goverment program did you get that helped you while we were being Bushed for 8 years?
.
.
.
I'm assuming that we don't have anybody here earning over a million a year.
Quoting CosmicEvents:
What goverment program did you get that helped you while we were being Bushed for 8 years?
.
.
.
I'm assuming that we don't have anybody here earning over a million a year.


Bush was a problem. Past presidents were a problem. Past Congresses with either majorities were a problem. What we have is here and now and is a major dayumed problem, like none we've seen before now. Let's move on past the blame game and address what's exponentially, detrimentally happening now and work to get this heavily listing ship righted!
Quoting moonlightcowboy:


Bush was a problem. Past presidents were a problem. Past Congresses with either majorities were a problem. What we have is here and now and is a major dayumed problem, like none we've seen before now. Let's move on past the blame game and address what's exponentially, detrimentally happening now and work to get this heavily listing ship righted!

I agree that we have a whopper of a problem. And it would be to everybody's benefit to get past the blame game. But I see others blaming Obama every day. When the fact is that if we didn't have thse tax cuts for the multi's and the misguided war, we'd have a balanced budget right now. And also, Obama would not be POTUS.
Quoting CosmicEvents:

I agree that we have a whopper of a problem. And it would be to everybody's benefit to get past the blame game. But I see others blaming Obama every day. When the fact is that if we didn't have thse tax cuts for the multi's and the misguided war, we'd have a balanced budget right now. And also, Obama would not be POTUS.


If "ifs and buts were candy and nuts, we'd all have a Merry Christmas!"

Obama is the POTUS, he is the one that effects policy now, not yesterday - he and Congress. And, since he's "the man" now, he's the one that catches the blame for his actions! That's just the way it is!
Quoting moonlightcowboy:


If "ifs and buts were candy and nuts, we'd all have a Merry Christmas!"

Obama is the POTUS, he is the one that effects policy now, not yesterday - he and Congress. And, since he's "the man" now, he's the one that catches the blame for his actions! That's just the way it is!

That's true. But the solution, if there is one, whatever it is, should be a solution that's in the best interest of the citizens. There shouldn't be an argument that's framed by incendiary tactics from the oil, health, military-industrial complex, and the moneyed people. That's what we have now. It's what we've had since 1914. We need to frame the argument from the standpoint of Citizen Joe....and stop with the blame. Instead, work together using the power of the vote to defeat the people that just want the status-quo to continue....as they take turns using the "righties" or the "lefties" to prevent any progress.
As I have been pointing out for the last several months now, the REAL roots to todays economic collapse, failures, and unreal debt, can be traced back at least 45 years to Lyndon B. Johnson and his War on Poverty!!!

This Utopian dream of The Great Society has now cost the taxpayers at a minimum of 5 trillion dollars, and that figure could possibly be as high as 9 trillion dollars!!!

No matter how you cut those figures, that is a lot of wealth transfer over those past 45 years... Now the Dems want to take even more of YOUR money out of your wallet, under the guise of HC reform...
"But I see others blaming Obama every day"
"When the fact is that if we didn't have thse tax cuts for the multi's and the misguided war,
You got one thing right."
"and stop with the blame"

Every president, every single one, can blame the
presidents, congress, and senate that came before them.

So what?

Is this president doing everything to make the next
president's job easier?
He's not thinking about the next guy or gal.

None of them do.
And they all inherit some mess from the ones before them.

So what?

I'm sick and tired of all this "well so and so did it"
and you are the one that brought that up.

Obama is the president right now.
Democrats are the Congress right now.

I'm talking about what they are doing

right now

GetReal...ASSUMING that Medicare was an efficient waste-free, fraud-free system...would you be against the concept of providing health care to our elderly folk? Personally, I think that Medicare was a great idea, but it's been mismanaged and allowed to wallow in waste and fraud as the years have gone by. And guess who profits...not the citizens, but the health care interests. Follow the money.
Our government is turning into the supporter to those that do nothing, and ones that will not at the exspense of those that do so they will have nothing like the ones they support!
Quoting sandcrab39565:
Our government is turning into the supporter to those that do nothing, and ones that will not at the exspense of those that do so they will have nothing like the ones they support!

I'm not talking about welfare here. Welfare I think we're all against. But welfare is a blip on the screen. The main costs are Medicare(LBJ) and Social Security(FDR). I'd ask you the same question that I asked GetReal...for or against an EFFICIENT system that provides health care to our elderly folk?
Quoting CosmicEvents:
GetReal...ASSUMING that Medicare was an efficient waste-free, fraud-free system...would you be against the concept of providing health care to our elderly folk? Personally, I think that Medicare was a great idea, but it's been mismanaged and allowed to wallow in waste and fraud as the years have gone by. And guess who profits...not the citizens, but the health care interests. Follow the money.


I guess we just let our elderly die before God gave us Medicare! LOL. No, we took care of our own the best way we could. Churches and communities helped each other, however they could. There were charity hospitals then, charitable doctors and people survived. But, these interests by and large, single-handedly made sure most of these fell by the wayside.

Follow the money? Of course, that simply means follow the money to Washington. There's been many a well-intentioned legislation get lost in implementation because it comes with a price - a Washington price. If anyone believes for a minute that these Congressmen and even the POTUS' influence is not waving a big red "I'm For Sale" sign on their doors - well, then you just don't understand how things work in Washington.

These crooks know how to play the game - they've refined very skillfully (even working together, when they appear not to) what they do to an artform! It perpetuates their tenure and their pocketbooks.

Take away that and you'll get real reform. Until then, it's just more bureaucratic mumbo jumbo that has very little to do with the "concern" for America's citizenry and everything to do with greed and power on the Hill. But, be assurred that as all these superb ideas are passed and some get rich from it (no matter what legislation it is), that there will be one remaining undeniable fact - the hard-working American taxpayer will be the poorer for it!
Quoting moonlightcowboy:


I guess we just let our elderly die before God gave us Medicare! LOL. No, we took care of our own the best way we could. Churches and communities helped each other, however they could. There were charity hospitals then, charitable doctors and people survived. But, these interests by and large, single-handedly made sure most of these fell by the wayside.

Follow the money? Of course, that simply means follow the money to Washington. There's been many a well-intentioned legislation get lost in implementation because it comes with a price - a Washington price. If anyone believes for a minute that these Congressmen and even the POTUS' influence is not waving a big red "I'm For Sale" sign on their doors - well, then you just don't understand how things work in Washington.

These crooks know how to play the game - they've refined very skillfully (even working together, when they appear not to) to an artform. It perpetuates their tenure and their pocketbooks.

Take away that and you'll get real reform. Until then, it's just more bureaucratic mumbo jumbo that has very little to do with the "concern" for America's citizenry and everything to do with greed and power on the Hill. But, be assurred that as all these superb ideas are passed and some get rich from it (no matter what legislation it is), that there will be one remaining undeniable fact - the hard-working American taxpayer will be the poorer for it!

I think that you're agreeing with me, and I agree with your post. Except I'd like to think that any POTUS is exempt on account of they have all the money they'll ever need, guaranteed on election day. And I'd also like to think that the money interests are just giving a small piece of the pie to the other politicos on both sides. They're not working in concert. It's the money that's calling the plays. They're the quarterback and coach. The politicos are the grunts on the O-line and D-line.
"for or against an EFFICIENT system that provides health care to our elderly folk?"

The government has already used the exact same reasons
when the government created Medicare, Medicaid, Medigap.

We already have a system - granted it's broken, over budget,
rationed health care, and costs tons more than the
government said it would.

Now they want to start a whole new one.

When these three programs were put into place to fix these
exact same problems.

Not these bozo's have convinced everyone that even though these
existing three systems are in place already,
and all three are broken,
that the government can somehow create a whole, brand new
system out of thin air
and it's going to be just wonderful.

If they were serious, they would just fix the three
programs that are already in place.

Medicare - health care for the elderly and children

Medicaid - health care for the poor

Medigap - health care premiums

Quoting latitude25:
"for or against an EFFICIENT system that provides health care to our elderly folk?"

The government has already used the exact same reasons
when the government created Medicare, Medicaid, Medigap.

We already have a system - granted it's broken, over budget,
rationed health care, and costs tons more than the
government said it would.

Now they want to start a whole new one.

When these three programs were put into place to fix these
exact same problems.

Not these bozo's have convinced everyone that even though these
existing three systems are in place already,
and all three are broken,
that the government can somehow create a whole, brand new
system out of thin air
and it's going to be just wonderful.

If they were serious, they would just fix the three
programs that are already in place.

Medicare - health care for the elderly and children

Medicaid - health care for the poor

Medigap - health care premiums


You make some good points....and I'll take your overall post as a "YEA" to an EFFICIENT Medicare.
.
.
Rationed care....we have this already. I'll give you just 1 example that I have some knowledge about. A cardiac defibrilllator for an asymptomatic patient with decreased heart function. It's expensive. Costs 50K++. It's presently completely covered under most private health insurance policies. As long as you're not over 79. If you're 80+ it's not covered. That's private insurance companies making a cost-benefit decision to ration care...and allow a few thousand 80+ folk to die. That's the present "death panel". So much mis and dis information out there.
115. Cosmic, I'm not saying nor do I think anyone else is saying we've got a perfect system. I think we all know there are problems. But hey, let's "get real" here - government is usually not a good solution! They are quick to legislate, underestimate costs, and poorly implement! Not exactly a well-run, streamlined body for driving success - just look at their track record. Hell, look at our debt, look at our present budget deficit. What in the world would make anyone want to give government more authority over anything just perplexes the hell out of me!
Of course it's yea to a efficient Medicare/aid/gap.

So why do we need a whole new system,
when these three existing systems were sold
to the public, to fix the exact same problems.

No one is saying anything else.

Everyone is saying, why create a whole new system,
why are they not fixing the ones already in place.

No one in their right mind would be for the government
creating a whole new system with this track record.
" If you're 80+ it's not covered."

Then these are the exact issues the government needs
to be addressing under the current Medicare/aid programs.

Under the current programs,

not creating a whole new mess and costing a fortune.

Like I said, if our government was serious, they would be reforming
what is already in place,
not creating all new.
117. I would add to your comment,

Why try to forcibly create an entire new system in a few short weeks ?

The prior two express big bills did not really hit home yet with most of America. Health care, on the other hand, hit home much faster
Quoting moonlightcowboy:
115. Cosmic, I'm not saying nor do I think anyone else is saying we've got a perfect system. I think we all know there are problems. But hey, let's "get real" here - government is usually not a good solution! They are quick to legislate, underestimate costs, and poorly implement! Not exactly a well-run, streamlined body for driving success - just look at their track record. Hell, look at our debt, look at our present budget deficit. What in the world would make anyone want to give government more authority over anything just perplexes the hell out of me!

Lat...before I forget, I mainly agree with your last post.
.
.
MLC, I agree with what you say as well. Goverment "solutions" generally haven't worked. I also take your post as an implicit "YEA" to an EFFICIENT Medicare. So, seems to me the best course of action is to reform Medicare/Aid/Gap...somehow...before proceeding much further down the line. Reform the present system...then and only then proceed to single payer(gasp). Medicare for all. An EFFICIENT Medicare. That seems to be the course that the POTUS is leading us into. He has to fight the interests in both parties(follow the money) it seems to achieve any reform to begin with. In the meantime we're left with Palin screaming death panels, distorted town halls, El Rushbo ranting about nazis. All meant to deflect us from talking about things that make sense AND that we agree on.
120. Respect, Cosmic, really. But "government" and "efficient" do not go in the same sentence together - not a possibility! One can only hope for better efficiency! And, truly often the only way to really acheive better efficiency is from cutting the program. Government is not the save all, be all, end all. There are and will be mechanisms in the private sector that can effectively and affordably handle most of these programs through fair competition and general regulation.

We've let these crooks have a blank checkbook, buying crap they couldn't afford and dayumed sure didn't know how to run - they've kited checks all over the world and it's finally all coming home to roost! We're flat out broke! What part of "broke" people can't grasp just bewilders me!

We can't afford this re-write of healthcare. We can't afford a dayumed band-aid!

Let's cut spending. Let's freeze spending. Let's cut spending across the board 10 percent. Let's study where the waste and duplication is. Let's get rid of the fraud and corruption! Let's streamline some of the things we do now, but do them poorly!

Let's get out of debt. Let's leave our country intact for our children to enjoy!
Here's my question:

Is our answer to unemployment to give everyone free healthcare? Wouldn't it be cheaper just to keep extending their uc benefits until they can get a job?

If it's not, then why the hell are we talking about healthcare instead of jobs?

Seems we've got it all bass ackwards!
Thanks for posting that article. Been hedging for when the bottom would hit it real estate. Decided to get my piece since June seemed to bring an upswing. Yes part seasonal but noticed by & large the foreclosed weren't going anywhere. With all the debt & printing dollar has to weaken eventually. I'd have never thought that they'd start tearing down houses or for that matter trashing cars. I know an old man who's wife clunked his. He can't drive it anymore since his stroke. He still had plans for it. Upkeep & duel insurance was a pain. She got caught up in the excitement. No idea it would be killed outright like that. So there is a 5 year warrenty on the new one's $6000 battery, some foreighn car. All when the big jump to all electrics is about to happen. WE should be forcing GM to make the car I can plug into my solar panel~ at home or work. The one oil companies & car companies don't want us to have. Something like Tesla's powered from a tower..free energy. It's rediculous that cars that were built to last were taken from us.

I've thought about what you said last time I was through. Since then a bread machine fell in my lap. Yeast, dry ingredients, wet ingredients push a few buttons & walk away or sleep & done in like 4hrs or hit the turbo button for 2hrs.. easier than drop buscuits. A loaf is less than a buck & better than anythng came from a store... I hear so much..wish I could make stuff like you, be more self sustaining. Well ya'll it ain't hard. Recipies are everywhere. For example... Don't like spending $16 for a little tub of lotion (which by the way that steric acis & sodium lariul sulfate from petrol has a huge % chance of giving you skin cancer)~ It takes like 10 mins & $2 to make your own. It takes that long to decide which poison to buy of all the choices. Advertisers have people so dumbed into I can't make anything. They have people bathin & eating all sorts of horrid stuff so they can squeeze every buck while folks are sicker & less healthy. Bitch less, make more & buy Americian, local when possible!
Hey, Skye! Totally agree with your 1st paragraph. Dayumed shame about the fella's ride! And, yes, I'd much rather have seen chunks of this money go to Tesla, instead of the places it has gone or supposed to go!

2nd paragraph was good too. Love home-made bread for sure - smells awesome as well. ;) But, this part, I absolutely thought was great:

Bitch less, make more & buy Americian, local when possible!

A M E N! And, thank you!
Hey Skye: Great post....I am working on replacing everything not made in America with made in America (quite a challenge actually).

Hey, I planted my avocado. :)
Gov't bulldozing 4closed homes?

We cant even get the Gov. to bulldoze condemned homes here in NOLA.

Politicians here (Nagin) haven't figured out how to personally profit from it yet...

If he figuers it out Caterpillar stock will be a good buy...lol
Quoting tkeith:
If he figuers it out Caterpillar stock will be a good buy...lol


Hey, TK. Yup, they've got to figure that out! And yes, CAT still probably a good buy - one of our last strongholds!
Fundamental Factors Affecting Housing

* Tougher lending standards: no more liar loans, bigger down payments, closer look at incomes, etc.
* Tougher appraisal standards
* The difficulty of finding jobs
* Wage and benefit cuts shrinks affordability for those who do have a job
* Huge bank-owned shadow inventories
* Huge developer shadow inventories, especially in condos
* Consumer willingness to "walk away"
* Rising delinquencies and foreclosures due to rising unemployment
* Rising taxes
* Overleveraged consumers
* Pent-up demand to sell in a "please get me out mentality" if prices rise just a bit
* The upcoming boomer retirement downsizing event
* A change in consumer attitudes regarding housing as an investment
* A new frugality in consumer attitudes towards debt in general


Every market is different, but in general, the odds of a huge nation-wide rebound in home prices is slim given that backdrop. Housing prices will likely remain depressed for several more years at least. In "real terms" I expect prices will decline for another decade.



(from Mishes' Trend Analysis)
Shattered Housing Dreams

In the long run, consumption cannot grow faster than income. Borrowing to support consumption only works as long as asset prices are rising. Consumers were willing to go deeper in debt and banks were willing to lend based on the now-shattered dreams of forever rising home prices.

In aggregate, consumers are now unable to service their debt, and the deflationary deleveraging process has started. Consumers will either default on debt, pay their debt down very slowly over time, or some combination of both.

Thus, the most likely result of Bernanke's printing press operation will be to drag the "job loss recovery" out for another decade, just as happened in Japan.



(from Mishes' Trend Analysis)
Shattered Housing Dreams and the Painful Process of Household Deleveraging

We are in the process of deleveraging the most leveraged economy in history. Many investors look at this deleveraging as a positive for the United States. We, on the other hand, look at this deleveraging as a major negative that will weigh on the economy for years to come and we could wind up with a lost couple of decades just as Japan experienced over the past 20 years.

We, however, don't believe that the U.S. massive stimulus programs and money printing can solve a problem of excess debt generation that resulted from greed and living way beyond our means. If this were the answer Argentina would be one of the most prosperous countries in the world. This excess debt actually resulted from the same money printing and easy money that we are now using to alleviate the pain.

The attached chart of total debt relative to GDP shows exactly how much debt grew in this country relative to GDP (it is now 375% of GDP). The total debt grew to over $52 trillion relative to our current GDP of approximately $14 trillion. This is worse than the debt to GDP relationship in the great depression (even when the GDP imploded) and greater than the debt to GDP that existed in Japan in 1989. Even if you took the debt to GDP when the U.S. entered the secular bear market in early 2000 and compared that to 1929 and Japan in late 1989, our debt to GDP still exceeded both (by a substantial margin relative to 1929). The approximate numbers at that time were about 275% in the U.S. in early 2000, 190% in 1929, and about 270% in Japan in 1989.

In fact, the similarities between Japan's deleveraging and the U.S. presently are eerie. Japan's total debt to GDP increased from 270% when their secular bear market started to just about 350% 7 years later (1998) before declining to 110% presently. The U.S. increased their total debt to GDP from 275% of GDP when our secular bear market started (in our opinion) to 375% presently (10 years later), and we suspect the total debt to decline similar to Japan's even though the Japanese govenment debt tripled during their deleveraging.

We expect that the U.S. deleveraging will follow along the path of Japan for years as real estate continues to decline and the deleveraging extracts a significant toll from any growth the economy might experience. We also expect that, just like Japan, the stock market will also be sluggish to down during the next few years as the most leveraged economy in history unwinds the debt.
Volume of 'subdivision' vacant lots overwhelms banks
Some fire-sale prices on have dipped to 20 to 30 cents on the dollar


You think it’s hard selling a house these days? Try unloading a subdivision.

And not just any subdivision, but one with few if any completed homes and a weedy patch where the swim-and-tennis center was planned.

That’s the reality many Georgia banks find themselves in amid a foreclosure crisis that has claimed not only individual homes but also entire failed developments.

These idled, “zombie” subdivisions can be found across metro Atlanta, but they’re most prevalent in outer-ring suburban areas. Selling them has proven tough, with some properties sitting on the market for months on end without even a nibble.

The fallout has been stark.

Banks that backed these projects are taking it on the chin, recording huge losses as they foreclose on property and make sales at a fraction of the original loan price.

In the past year, 16 Georgia banks have failed, more than in any other state, largely because of residential real estate losses. Dozens more are struggling.
Hey Cowboy...

Interesting stuff here regarding the real estate...

Ironically, I had a conversation w/ a local builder and he just bought a 40 lot subdivision with the exclusive right to be the builder...

Which is good news for me. I'm beginning to see business pick up... granted, buyers are looking for "deals", but at least the buyers are looking again!

BTW, nice avatar!

hahaha!

Big Hug to ya!
Oh and one more thing...
Interesting, one of the S/D's here locally that is failing and miserably so, was developed by a GA developer...

He had come to me and asked for advice about how to develop the property... I worked for almost a year putting together a "plan" to help him develop a property that would be sellable and be a profit maker for him. He decided to go with the agency who "blew hot air up his pants leg", told him he could double his profit by jacking up pricing and doubling the # of units to be built....
Yep, he would have had "less profit", but he probably would not be near bancruptcy if he'd listen to a more sensible plan...

Well, wonder what he's thinking now????
132. BFoxx, I'm sure there are some areas that will continue to benefit, your probably being one of them. However, as a whole, the picture is considerably bleaker, and will be bleaker for some years to come.

Consumption can not grow faster than income, and with even by conservative estimates of nearly 15 million unemployed and more contraction expected. And, when you consider all of the debt that has yet to be unwound through foreclosure, etc, etc, the real estate market as a whole will remain depressed for years to come still.
Quoting Beachfoxx:
Oh and one more thing...
Interesting, one of the S/D's here locally that is failing and miserably so, was developed by a GA developer...

He had come to me and asked for advice about how to develop the property... I worked for almost a year putting together a "plan" to help him develop a property that would be sellable and be a profit maker for him. He decided to go with the agency who "blew hot air up his pants leg", told him he could double his profit by jacking up pricing and doubling the # of units to be built....
Yep, he would have had "less profit", but he probably would not be near bancruptcy if he'd listen to a more sensible plan...

Well, wonder what he's thinking now????


Seems like another greed, over-leveraged story.
Shadow Housing Inventory? Only the Banks Know

Today's relatively good news from the National Association of Realtors only added to the posse of positives in housing data. Sales are up for the third straight month, prices, while down, are not as far down as last month, and housing starts rose unexpectedly in June after builder confidence posted a gain as well.

So what's bothering me?

Inventory.

For the past few months I've talked a little bit about so-called "shadow inventory." These are the homes that banks have taken back after foreclosures (known as REO properties). In normal times banks immediately turn REOs around and up them up for sale, but that's not happening at a very fast clip these days. The Realtor's chief economist, Lawrence Yun, called it a "business decision" by the banks:

"I believe that many banks including Fannie and Freddie, who are also holding onto some properties, are releasing foreclosed properties in a measured way so as to not to flood the market which they perceive then perhaps could lead them to even more drastic price cuts. So they are releasing properties on a measured pace as a business decision to minimize losses."

So what exactly is the size of this shadow inventory?

Hard to say, but estimates are that it could be around 700,000.

This of course does not include the foreclosures that are still in process, which builder analyst Ivy Zelman refers to as "the pig in the python." Builders are concerned that if these properties suddenly flood the market, their new high hopes could turn right back around.

The good news and the bad news is that investors are back.

It's good because they're sucking up all the foreclosed properties. It's bad because they are turning around and renting them, driving down rental prices and competing directly with entry-level home builders, who really need to catch a break.

Moody's predicts there will be 6.5 million foreclosures between now and 2012. If they dribble slowly out onto the "for sale" market, then they will be absorbed quickly, but if not, they could throw a real wrench into recovery.
Cowboy,

I agree... we have some factors in our favor including location and the military presence among others....
Quoting moonlightcowboy:
132. BFoxx, I'm sure there are some areas that will continue to benefit, your probably being one of them. However, as a whole, the picture is considerably bleaker, and will be bleaker for some years to come.

Consumption can not grow faster than income, and with even by conservative estimates of nearly 15 million unemployed and more contraction expected. And, when you consider all of the debt that has yet to be unwound through foreclosure, etc, etc, the real estate market as a whole will remain depressed for years to come still.
Quoting Beachfoxx:
Which is good news for me. I'm beginning to see business pick up... granted, buyers are looking for "deals", but at least the buyers are looking again!

BTW, nice avatar!

hahaha!

Big Hug to ya!



I am very glad to hear that your situation is improving! Good to hear some good news! ;)

Oh, and well, your avatar is dayumed fine lookin'! ;)
Cowboy,

I must get at least ten emails a day, from various R.E. news sources... sometimes more.

It is depressing, so depressing sometimes I just hit delete! Business is tough enough w/o adding depression to the work load! LOL

Yep, Cowboy, its improved, but the outlook still is not rosy...
Quoting Beachfoxx:
Yep, Cowboy, its improved, but the outlook still is not rosy...


Hang tough, girl!
LOL -

Its my only choice! Hang tough, work hard and be the best!
Quoting moonlightcowboy:


Hang tough, girl!
...a good read all the way through.


The Bounce Phase of the Economic Depression

“It looks like things are finally turning around,” said a friend at Saturday night’s dinner.

“Not at all…” we replied.

Paul Krugman says the world “avoided a second Great Depression.” He’s wrong too.

The stock market crashed in ’29. The market then bounced. After a few months almost everyone was persuaded that the “worst was over.” But the worst was just beginning. It wasn’t until 1932 that the stock market finally hit bottom. By then, it was beginning to seem like a depression…and only years later did economic historians tag it as a ‘great’ depression.

This depression is still wet behind the ears… We’re still in the bounce phase. On Friday, the Dow went 113 points higher. And as the bounce continues, more and more investors will come to believe that stocks are in a new bull market and that the economy is back in growth mode.

Neither will be true.

The stock market is in a bear market rally, not a genuine bull market. The economy is entering a long depression…possibly a ‘great’ one.

How can we be so sure? Well, we’re not sure of anything. But all the signs point in that direction. Household debt as a percentage of disposable income hit a low of about 2% just at the end of WWII. It’s been going up ever since. By 2005 it nudged against 15% – seven times higher than it had been 60 years earlier. Household debt represents spending that has been taken from the future. But you can’t take an infinite amount from future earnings. You reach a point when the future can’t handle it. As more and more future earnings are absorbed by past consumption, pretty soon there’s not enough left to live on. At some point, so much of earnings are devoted to paying the interest and principle on past borrowings that the poor householder cannot to pay his expenses. And imagine what happens if his disposable income goes down.

Guess how many jobs the US private sector has added over the last 10 years? Almost none. Private sector employment is back to levels of 1999. There are more jobs in restaurants and health care…but many fewer in manufacturing. Net gain: zero.

The only job gains have been in the parasite sector – government. On the evidence, this trend is going to continue. Now, the feds have a new post called “pay czar.” As near as we can tell this is a busybody who undertakes to control salaries in the industries that the feds have bailed out. There will be a lot more jobs running the regulatory/bailout apparatus. Then, too, there are all the make-work jobs of the shovel ready boondoggles the feds began in an effort to replace private spending.
...hhhhmmm, I think a few of us have seen this one coming! Can anybody say "good bank-bad bank" and another "stim-u-less?"


Watchdog says bad assets still threaten banks

Bad assets still threaten bank stability, congressional watchdog says



WASHINGTON (AP) -- Despite signs that the financial system has stabilized, banks remain threatened by billions of dollars of bad loans on their balance sheets, and more could fail if the economy worsens, a congressional watchdog reports.

In its latest assessment of the $700 billion financial system bailout, the Congressional Oversight Panel warns that banks still hold many risky loans of uncertain value. If unemployment rises sharply or the commercial real estate market collapses -- as many economists fear -- the banking system could again lose its footing, the panel says in a report to be released Tuesday.

"The financial system (remains) vulnerable to the crisis conditions that (the bailout) was meant to fix," the panel wrote in a draft copy of Tuesday's report.

The Congressional Oversight Panel was created as part of the Troubled Asset Relief Program, or TARP. It is designed to provide an additional layer of oversight, beyond the Special Inspector General for the TARP and regular audits by the Government Accountability Office.

The report says many of the Obama administration's financial stability efforts are working -- including infusions of new capital for banks, heightened scrutiny of capital ratios, "stress-testing" of large financial firms. It also pointed to a public-private investment plan designed to buy up bad assets that has yet to get off the ground.

But with banks still holding the assets at the heart of the crisis, they remain vulnerable, the panel says.

"These steps have ... allowed the banks to take significant losses while building reserves," the panel wrote in the draft report. "Nonetheless, financial stability remains at risk if the underlying problem of toxic assets remains unresolved."
China's exports, imports fall sharply in July

Government reports China's exports fall 22.9 percent in July, imports down 14.9 percent


BEIJING (AP) -- The decline in China's imports accelerated in July despite a rise in economic growth, while exports also fell more sharply amid weak global demand, data showed Tuesday.

Imports fell 14.9 percent from a year earlier, compared with a 13.2 percent decline the previous month, the customs agency reported. That was despite a rise in Chinese investment and consumer spending amid a massive government stimulus that is driving demand for imported raw materials and components.

Exports fell by 22.9 percent in July from a year earlier, compared with a 21.4 percent decline in June, the customs agency said.
A Labor Department report is expected to show quarterly productivity -- which measures the amount of output per hour of work -- grew 5.3 percent during the second quarter, more than three times higher than growth seen in the first quarter. The growth was likely tied to businesses successfully cutting the number of hours worked faster than the decline in output, rather than the result of improving production.

The report is due out at 8:30 a.m. EDT.

The Commerce Department is expected to report wholesale inventories fell in June for the 10th consecutive month, declining 0.9 percent, according to economists polled by Thomson Reuters. However, sales at the wholesale level are expected to have ticked 0.5 percent higher during the month, a sign the economy might be improving.

The inventories report is due out at 10 a.m. EDT.

Meanwhile, bond prices rose slightly as the Treasury Department prepares this week to auction off a record $75 billion in debt. The auctions start Tuesday with the sale of $37 billion in three-year notes.

Investors will be keeping a close eye on demand for the new debt. Fewer buyers could force the government to increase the interest it pays, which would drive up borrowing costs for consumers and slow an economic recovery.

The yield on the three-year note, which moves opposite its price, declined to 1.77 percent from 1.78 percent late Monday. The yield on the benchmark 10-year Treasury note fell to 3.76 percent from 3.78 percent late Monday.

The dollar was mixed against other major currencies, while gold prices rose.
"Here's my question:
Is our answer to unemployment to give everyone free healthcare?
Wouldn't it be cheaper just to keep extending their uc benefits
until they can get a job?"

Would you please stop making sense.

This isn't about health care anyway.

It's about the government taking over banks, car companies,
energy companies, the entire health care industry,
and on and on and on.............
Quoting latitude25:
"Here's my question:
Is our answer to unemployment to give everyone free healthcare?
Wouldn't it be cheaper just to keep extending their uc benefits
until they can get a job?"

Would you please stop making sense.

This isn't about health care anyway.

It's about the government taking over banks, car companies,
energy companies, the entire health care industry,
and on and on and on.............
Precisely Lat! They just want MORE AND MORE control.
I'm afraid I see a future where you won't be able to get a loan,
a mortage, health care, credit card, utilities, car or truck, buy a house,
even your job,

without going to the government first.
Quoting latitude25:
I'm afraid I see a future where you won't be able to get a loan,
a mortage, health care, credit card, utilities, car or truck, buy a house,
even your job,

without going to the government first.


...and, I'm not liking your vision of the future at all!
Is anyone watching the PA townhall meeting with Specter....I can't see it from work and curious how it is going.
You didn't miss much CG! I'm wondering how the Obama townhall will go in NH! Should be interesting. Hopefully we'll get GOOD questions and follow ups that push the issues.
I have had to read this several more times since I posted it yesterday, and it still scares the stuffing out of me. Is this guy on target or full of it?

Link

http://www.financialsense.com/Market/kirby/2009/0810.html
Oss, I too have been scared stiff about that article. If we are in a liquidity gap, then that article is worst case scenario talk. However, the second banks start lending again, the interest rates are going to have to go up. There is so much liquidity out there, but it's all being shored up to make the balance sheets look good. Banks are waiting for the rise in interest rates before lending, because they make money off higher rates. It's all such a big catch22!!!

The bond sales will be interesting to watch this week for sure.
I am so hard pressed to understand why anyone is excited about this bear rally? Yes, people with extensive knowledge about the market can make money and probably are...but those small investors, like the millions of Americans that only invest with 401Ks are NOT getting the returns they are hoping for. Many are about to retire and have no home equity, their 401Ks have been depleted by the economic downturn and they can't retire, which means less job openings for the youth.
Oss, see #130.
Quoting moonlightcowboy:
Oss, see #130.


Gheeeze, I missed that one and wish I still did after reading it :(
MLC, you fear mongerer you. Spreading all that nonsensical data. Pfft!

;)
Quoting homegirl:
MLC, you fear mongerer you. Spreading all that nonsensical data. Pfft!

;)


Yeah, buddy, I'm just full of non-sense, no facts, no foresight - all BS, yup that's me! I'm not sure I've ever even had a cognizant thought! Fortunately, I was blessed with at least being able to read! ;)

...and, considering our plight and having to unwind so much debt, I find it particularly ridiculous that we have an administration and a congress who want to legislate more senseless spending, when we should be doing everything we can to promote and encourage expansion of the economy through more jobs, expanding the taxbase and growing the GDP, not debt!

I can't believe we actually elect these morons to office!

Well, MLC...unfortunately I was one who was trusting enough to believe what they all say and vote for the one I "liked".

That whole "change blindness" thing has taken hold of me though...and now that I see what's happening, I can't go back. Still not sure if I'm happy about that or not! lol he, he...he.
153. Oss, your post reminds me of something ironically funny that I ran across a few days ago. It was from an article in February of 2008.

I can't remember what the article was about, but at the end of it there was sort of a Q&A, a quiz about the Federal Reserve. It was multiple choice and it said, "Which one of these does the Fed not do?"

The answer was "buy US Treauries" - of course, that no longer applies. And, that should tell everyone much about what's happening now!
If you all have not viewed the new main blog, there were some viral links posted recently. My sniffers picked up on some of that happening over the last week. I would tell you that windows defender was the only active security program I use that picked up the password stealer. It is free. Caution is advised on all links, even cut and pasted text. Please share this information accordingly.

From the Doc's blog today --

Blog comments not recommended
Someone managed to post a comment on my blog both Saturday and Monday containing links to a malicious web site that infected some people's computers when they clicked on the link. Our tech people have identified how to stop these attacks, but it will take some development time to engineer a fix. I recommend people not click on any links in comments posted on any wunderground blog unless you are highly confident of the destination of the link, or of the strength of your anti-virus software. I'll announce when the software fix has been made. I apologize to anybody who may have been affected by this. If you have specific information on which comments may have caused the problem, and who may be responsible, please submit a support ticket to help us out. At this time, it appears that actually reading comments on wunderground blogs is not a danger.


Well, I guess that rains on everyone's parade. :(

...troublemakers, Oss?
I was out there last night and this morning and ran virus on both home and work computer and no problem, but I don't typically click on links.
Yep, I don't click on the links either unless they're from longtime poster's handles that I trust, on Master's blog.

Really stinks that happened though. :(
Quoting moonlightcowboy:
Well, I guess that rains on everyone's parade. :(

...troublemakers, Oss?


Yep, with malice aforethought with respect to someone's PC. It is very difficult hide on the internet, but foreign borders provide a locked door sometimes.
Dow 9,239.48 -98.47 -1.05%
Nasdaq 1,965.46 -26.78 -1.34%
S&P 500 993.71 -13.39 -1.33%

Wholesale inventories drop for 10th straight month
MLC, what is the fourth quarter going to look like when these companies can't get credit to buy inventory? I think many have cut to the bone already and without a successful Holiday retail season, the first quarter could be disasterous.

GLOOM AND DOOM...I know, I know, lurkers...layoff! ;)
...hhhhhhhmmmmm, but I don't know this guy, interesting opinion though.




Yes, the late 2007-early 2009 market debacle was just a warm-up to what Prechter believes will be the bear market's main attraction. In this regard, he says the current cycle will echo past post-bubble periods such as America in the 1930s and England in the 1720s, after the bursting of the South Sea bubble.

The 2000 market peak market a "major trend change" for the market from a very long-term cycle perspective, and the downside is going to continue to be painful well into the next decade, Prechter says. "The extreme overvaluation, the manic buying and bubbles in the late 1990s [and] mid-2000s are for the history books - they're very large," he says. "The bear market is going to have balance that out with some sort of significant retrenchment."
Quoting homegirl:
MLC, what is the fourth quarter going to look like when these companies can't get credit to buy inventory? I think many have cut to the bone already and without a successful Holiday retail season, the first quarter could be disasterous.

GLOOM AND DOOM...I know, I know, lurkers...layoff! ;)


I think Christmas is gonna make it, but for many folks they'll be gradually getting there, starting now or already, more than ever before.

Santa's on a lowfat diet! ;)
MLC where did you find this guy (169)????

Are you sure this guy isn't you!?!?
Quoting GetReal:
MLC where did you find this guy (169)????

Are you sure this guy isn't you!?!?


I run into me all the time, GR! I keep falling all over myself. Just too dayumed clumsy, I guess! ;)
Four out of the top five models of new cars being purchased as part of "cash for clunkers" are foreign cars.

Two out of three are in fact either a Ford Focus or a Chevy Cobalt. All imports combined make up the last 1/3.
Can I get a link for that fact jim?

Tried to find that figure, but all the info I've seen is foreign cars leading the way.

???
I saw this stat on either the ABC nightly news or our local news, I can't remember which. Should be Google-able I would think. I'll look when I get home.

Quickly looking around I see now a good lesson for all of us. That is to say be careful of your sources and don't believe everything you read on face vale. Although I am sure of what I heard and saw, it seems to depend who you source.

I have since looked at several different car sales stats and am seeing very different results. Ford keeps popping up as #1 both overall and conjuncture with the CARS program for June, July and early August but #2 on varies wildly.

I will continue to look for a definitive reliable source.
so what happens when cash for clunkers is outta cash...we go back to where we are now??..
179. JuneB
hhhmmm...didn't see anyone comment on this story in the Wall Street Journal today.

AUGUST 10, 2009, 6:10 P.M. ET.
Lawmakers Urged to Raise Nation's Debt Limit

By MICHAEL R. CRITTENDEN and PATRICK YOEST

WASHINGTON -- U.S. lawmakers, already under pressure to move controversial health-care legislation and a revamp of the financial system, were saddled Friday with the unpopular task of quickly increasing the maximum amount of money the federal government can borrow.

Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner, in a letter to sent to top U.S. lawmakers on Friday, asked Congress to move "as soon as possible" to increase the nation's statutory debt limit. The Treasury estimates that the $12.1 trillion current limit could be reached as soon as mid-October, Mr. Geithner wrote.

"It is critically important that Congress act before the limit is reached so that citizens and investors here and around the world can remain confident that the United States will always meet its obligations," Mr. Geithner said in the letter.
"the United States will always meet its obligations"

Even if it means buying a new printing press.
Quoting JuneB:
hhhmmm...didn't see anyone comment on this story in the Wall Street Journal today.

AUGUST 10, 2009, 6:10 P.M. ET.
Lawmakers Urged to Raise Nation's Debt Limit

By MICHAEL R. CRITTENDEN and PATRICK YOEST

WASHINGTON -- U.S. lawmakers, already under pressure to move controversial health-care legislation and a revamp of the financial system, were saddled Friday with the unpopular task of quickly increasing the maximum amount of money the federal government can borrow.

Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner, in a letter to sent to top U.S. lawmakers on Friday, asked Congress to move "as soon as possible" to increase the nation's statutory debt limit. The Treasury estimates that the $12.1 trillion current limit could be reached as soon as mid-October, Mr. Geithner wrote.

"It is critically important that Congress act before the limit is reached so that citizens and investors here and around the world can remain confident that the United States will always meet its obligations," Mr. Geithner said in the letter.


JuneB, yes, we've seen that. I think GR may have posted it initially. Trouble - more borrowing. More borrowing just to keep the government running, much less the economy.
Quoting latitude25:
"the United States will always meet its obligations"

Even if it means buying a new printing press.


LOL
Quoting toddluck:
so what happens when cash for clunkers is outta cash...we go back to where we are now??..


More cash burn. This time it's all taxpayer cash burn.
Quoting jiminnh:
I saw this stat on either the ABC nightly news or our local news, I can't remember which. Should be Google-able I would think. I'll look when I get home.



Jim, I appreciate your concerns. There are links here posted on that subject. Other links have been posted as well. If you find another link that substantiates otherwise, you may post it. Until then, don't come in this blog questioning what has already been vetted. Thank you.
Quoting jiminnh:
I saw this stat on either the ABC nightly news or our local news, I can't remember which. Should be Google-able I would think. I'll look when I get home.



And, welcome to the blog. Differing opinions, thoughts, posts are welcome; but, I suggest you read the rules of the blog. Thanks.
186. JuneB
This was on the front page of the newspaper this morning. We here, in Kansas City are going to be guinea pigs for the rest of the country. They are trying to determine just how mad we will get when they decide we are over using our utilities and switch us off at the central control station.

I am steaming red hot on this one! Tree hugging librals watch out. I am mad! Just how far will this bunch go? This is all about control. And now they are going to turn off the electricity!

Smart grid that controls utility use comes to KC
By CHAD DAY
The Kansas City Star
It%u2019s a 98-degree August day. Air conditioners along Prospect Avenue near 42nd Street are running at full bore.

Suddenly the whirring stops, all at once, without anyone touching a thermostat.

Someone miles away at Kansas City Power & Light decided residents on this block could stand a slightly warmer home for a while to save energy.

That%u2019s the future, and it%u2019s called the smart grid. Someday it could be in your own home and in millions more nationwide.

Kansas City%u2019s urban core in the Green Impact Zone will be the testing ground for advances in the smart grid, which is the name for a project to upgrade electrical devices in your home and upgrade power lines in the area.

%u201CThe rest of the country is looking to Kansas City to lead on this,%u201D said Danny Rotert, spokesman for U.S. Rep. Emanuel Cleaver, a Kansas City Democrat who has been the driving force behind the green zone.
186. JuneB, the future has arrived and it ain't pretty! Dayum!
Geeeesh! WARNING! For mature audiences only. What your about to hear is a diversionary tactic that ultimately is part of the propaganda to keep control over our money. If these goons were so smart there would never have been the "financial meltdown" scare to begin with. Of course, we all know that Goldman Sachs was cleverly leveraging their position to eliminate their competition and gain more power. And, that's exactly what they've done.

Additional Warning - I am assuming that the Cleveland FR is figuring that we're all a bunch of dayumed idiots and have resorted to pencil drawings to have it explained to us!

189. JuneB
Yep, MLC, it is just happening too fast all of a sudden.

BTW, meteor shower tonight if anyone want to look up between midnight and 4 a.m.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/space/20090811/sc_space/strongmeteorshowerexpectedtonight/print
190. JuneB
I gotta run. Showing homes tonight. Thanks, MLC. I will catch up later, and watch your utube for "WARNING! For mature audiences only" when I get home. LOL

By the way, anyone with credit scores under 740, that go conventional are not eligible for the best rates. 1 year ago, it was 700! hhhmmm!
Quoting jiminnh:
Quickly looking around I see now a good lesson for all of us. That is to say be careful of your sources and don't believe everything you read on face vale. Although I am sure of what I heard and saw, it seems to depend who you source.

I have since looked at several different car sales stats and am seeing very different results. Ford keeps popping up as #1 both overall and conjuncture with the CARS program for June, July and early August but #2 on varies wildly.

I will continue to look for a definitive reliable source.


Thanks for looking around Jim! I really haven't seen anywhere that shows two American car manufacturers in the top five...but, and this is more to answer todd's question...

Though the gov'ts attempt at a true fiscal stimulus seemed "successful" it truly has only created another artificial bubble and kept the car manufacturers from cutting jobs that will ultimately have to be cut. It's a good thing for the moment, but without sustainable manufacturing demand...those people will ultimately lose their job anyway. Now, was it cheaper for the gov't to pay people to purchase cars and keep people off the unemployment lines for a few more months? Those are the figures I'd like to see, but have no intention or desire of looking up. lol

;)
188. Thank you for the post.

My compliments to the producer(s) of the youtube.

Spot on.
Well, I need to think about that youtube a bit MLC...sounds fair enough if you're into the whole idea that the goons at the reserve have any ablility to "control" or equalize the systemic risk with oversight and regulation. Just not possible, imo. I'm gonna chew on it a bit...but that's my first thoughts.

I'm out for the night! TTYL
Quoting homegirl:
Well, I need to think about that youtube a bit MLC...sounds fair enough if you're into the whole idea that the goons at the reserve have any ablility to "control" or equalize the systemic risk with oversight and regulation. Just not possible, imo. I'm gonna chew on it a bit...but that's my first thoughts.

I'm out for the night! TTYL


Yes, and that's what they want you to think - that it needs help, their help. That's jargon for "we need to control" the money supply. We don't want to be audited. We want to remain in power. And, here's how we can save us all from this happening again! We're smart. We can do it. If you just let us do it! LMAO! ;)

It needs help alright - helped out the door!
196. JuneB
ELDERLY SWING AGAINST OBAMA PLAN

By DICK MORRIS & EILEEN MCGANN

Published on DickMorris.com on August 11, 2009

The most ominous signal yet for the Obama health care plan emerged in the poll by Scott Rasmussen released today. While public support for the plan fell to a new low (42% support, 53% oppose -- down five points in two weeks), the elderly emerged as the strongest opposition group. Those over 65 rejected the plan by 39-56 while almost half -- 46% -- said they were "strongly opposed" to it.

The group that supports the plan most strongly is those likely to be least affected, voters under the age of thirty, 67% of whom support the proposals.

The Democratic Senators and Congressmen can well choose to ignore polls. Polls go up. Polls go down. They may figure that the public will have moved on by the time they run for re-election, particularly those Senators who are not up in 2010. With four or six years to go in their terms, they can afford a relaxed view of polling data.

But the Democratic Party as a whole cannot afford to ignore a massive defection in the ranks of the elderly, one of its key building blocks. Ever since the New Deal coalition was cobbled together by FDR, the elderly have been a major component. Worried about Republican designs on their Social Security, they vote overwhelmingly Democratic.

But the Obama proposals, which many see correctly as a major cut in Medicare, might be seminal in driving them en masse away from the Democrats.

The Democratic Party is built on six pillars -- blacks, Latinos, single women, young people, union members, and the elderly. If legislation threatens one of those pillars, it threatens the stability of the entire partisan structure. And Obama's health care reform seems to do just that.

With 40% of the savings in medical spending coming from Medicare, the senior citizens of America are coming to see the Obama proposals as an assault on their health care system. Since their needs are fully met by Medicare, they see no need for monkeying with the system and are highly suspicious of any changes. When they watch as their fellow seniors attend town meetings to protest to their Congressmen about these cuts and are labeled "un-American" for their pains, their alienation from the Democrats just grows.

The fissure Obama is driving between his party and the elderly will not soon heal. When the elderly change their voting habits, they tend to do so for a very, very long time. Even Senators who are up in

2012 or 2014 should worry that their votes for the Obama plan could doom their ability to attract elderly support.

As to the young people who back the plan, once they learn that they will have to pay steep premiums for health care coverage, whether they want to or not, their support is likely to cool. Under the bill, for example, those making $30,000 a year would have to pay up to 7% of their income in health insurance premiums before they could get a government subsidy. A $2,100 bill for such a young person might seem affordable to Obama, but perhaps not to them. Thus, the legislation may well come to be seen as a tax on the young, another of the key constituencies of the Democratic Party.

The cost of Obama's health care changes just keeps growing -- financially and politically.
197. JuneB
188. moonlightcowboy,"Additional Warning - I am assuming that the Cleveland FR is figuring that we're all a bunch of dayumed idiots and have resorted to pencil drawings to have it explained to us!"

Yep, they think we are morons. I could barely finish watching it. But then, maybe they are right. Look at how long we have put up with this, without question!

Good night, MLC. I have a Birthday Party at my house tomorrow. It's late, and if I do not finish the Fairy Princess cake, I am going to have a very sad 6 year old.

P.S. I hope you are wrong about them passing HC, but I do see what you are talking about when you said that there is a big fracture, and that it is growing.

Quoting JuneB:
...I do see what you are talking about when you said that there is a big fracture, and that it is growing.



Thank you, JuneB. The fracture is of a new paradigm that most can not comprehend at this time. Some will not notice - it's been where they are already - obliged to governent - these folks will not see much change at all. Only the folks that have tried to be self-supportive will undergo the change - that change is more redistribution of "not so much wealth"; but, very much more that of simply "effort" for the American product, the American way - it's getting cut, cut to the marrow.

The key word is "unstainability" - whether it occurs now, next year or 20 year from now, it can only progressively get worse.

We're broke, busted.

If one is digging himself in a hole and it keeps getting deeper, someone needs to take the shovel from him.

There is another similar analogy: It's coming in with a spoon and going out with a shovel. That's where we are!
Nikkei 225 10,459.36 -126.10 -1.19%
Hang Seng 20,666.51 -407.70 -1.93%
Straits Times 2,589.37 -7.93 -0.31%
Quoting Ossqss:
If you all have not viewed the new main blog, there were some viral links posted recently. My sniffers picked up on some of that happening over the last week. I would tell you that windows defender was the only active security program I use that picked up the password stealer. It is free. Caution is advised on all links, even cut and pasted text. Please share this information accordingly.

From the Doc's blog today --

Blog comments not recommended
Someone managed to post a comment on my blog both Saturday and Monday containing links to a malicious web site that infected some people's computers when they clicked on the link. Our tech people have identified how to stop these attacks, but it will take some development time to engineer a fix. I recommend people not click on any links in comments posted on any wunderground blog unless you are highly confident of the destination of the link, or of the strength of your anti-virus software. I'll announce when the software fix has been made. I apologize to anybody who may have been affected by this. If you have specific information on which comments may have caused the problem, and who may be responsible, please submit a support ticket to help us out. At this time, it appears that actually reading comments on wunderground blogs is not a danger.




Interesting...

I've been dealing with a malicious trojan since Sunday. I have no idea where I picked it up. I'm currently working on getting it cleaned out and am typing this from my daughter's mac. Ugly, ugly piece of software that completely took over my system. UGH!
Well... I was going to post a link to an article that expresses my thoughts on why the need to reduce the costs of healthcare is critical and belongs right up there with create new jobs. It's a site I trust (HG oftentimes quotes "the 5" from their site), but I think I'll paste the rather long article in full...

It's from Agora Financial, an investment advisory site that publishes daily articles with a contrarian bent.

08/11/09 Baltimore, Maryland

The first public retirement pension scheme was created by Otto von Bismarck in 1880 Germany. Fifty years later, during the Great Depression, Franklin Roosevelt followed suit in the United States. As we’ve seen, the number of people expected to reach the retirement age of 65 was not considered to pose a threat to future funding. Life expectancy in 1935, in the United States, for example, was 76.9 for men. Workers relying on the plan for retirement would not receive much each month and were not expected to live long enough to drain the system.

When Social Security was founded, the typical US worker at age 65 could expect to live another 11.9 years. But if today’s official projections are right, by the year 2040 the typical 65-year-old worker can expect to live at least another 19.2 years. If the normal retirement age had been indexed to longevity since 1935, today’s worker would be waiting until age 73 to receive full benefits and tomorrow’s workers even longer.

In a report called “Demographics and Capital Markets Returns,” Robert Arnott and Anne Casscells argue that the crisis is not in Social Security, but in demographics. “When an entire society ages,” suggest Arnott and Casscells, “…the thing that matters most is the ratio between the workers to retirees. Unfortunately, the aging of the baby boom generation, which is a significant bulge in population, will cause a dramatic increase in the ratio between workers to retirees, one that will put enormous strain on society and cause friction between generations.”

In the United States, as in other developed countries, the unfunded benefit liability for public pensions amounts to 100 percent to 250 percent of GDP. It is a “ hidden debt “ far greater than official public debt. Unlike in the private sector, these debts are not amortized as expenses over 30 to 40 years. And it may be worth pointing out that under normal conditions economies do not run such crushing deficits. They only do so in crisis mode.

The annual cost of Social Security benefits represented 4.4 percent of GDP in 2008 and is projected to increase to 6.2 percent of GDP in 2034, and then decline to about 5.8 percent of GDP by 2050 and remain at about that level.

And to the retiring boomers’ other doubts and insecurities, we might add that US health care costs are expected to rise by 7 percent of GDP over the next 40 years – a rate that is more than twice as fast as other developing nations. The “old old,” – those aged 80 and over – are predicted to rise sharply through 2050 and will dramatically increase long – term care costs as well as disability, dependence, and health care expenses.

In fact, by official projections, in 2030, the US government will be spending more on nursing homes than it spends on Social Security today. “Although people justifiably worry about Social Security,” says Victor Fuchs, an economist who studies the health care industry, “paying for old folks’ health care is the real 800-pound gorilla facing the US economy.” Adding projections for Medicare and Medicaid ‘s expenditures to those of Social Security could raise the total cost to more than 50 percent of payroll taxes.

The fiscal kickers of health cost inflation and political demand for more long-term care benefits threaten to raise public spending dramatically in the United States. Between 2005 and the fall of 2008, we spent two and a half years chronicling the efforts of David Walker, the former comptroller general of the United States, and Bob Bixby, executive director of the Concord Coalition, to reign in reform and shore up the Social Security and Medicare systems. The project yielded a feature length documentary film, which earned us a trip to the Sundance Film Festival in January of 2008 and another to the Critic’s Choice Awards in Los Angeles a year later. We published a best-selling companion book of the same title in late 2008. You’re encouraged to delve into the numbers we presented in the film and book. They’re truly mindboggling. But in many ways the project was dated the moment we released it to the public.

The credit crisis that reached a fever pitch developed in 2008 pushed the date of insolvency of these programs ever closer. On May 13, 2009, the Medicare Trustees warned that the fund they tap to pay for beneficiaries’ hospital care will be insolvent by 2017 – two years earlier than trustees had predicted the year before. The program has been paying out more than it collects in taxes and interest since last year, in part due to a recession well underway. Medicare would have to deposit $ 13.4 trillion – $ 1 trillion higher than last year’s estimate – into an interest-earning account today in order for the hospital fund to pay its scheduled benefits over the next 75 years. The program’s total unfunded obligation, which includes doctor and prescription drug benefits, is $37.8 trillion. The trustees estimated that in coming years, Medicare spending will rise faster than workers’ earnings or the economy as a whole.

Trustees say that while the financial standing of Social Security decreased more sharply than Medicare last year, the health program remains at greater risk of insolvency. The financial difficulties facing Social Security and Medicare pose serious challenges, the report concluded.

For Social Security, the reform options are relatively well understood but the choices are difficult. Medicare is a bigger challenge. Its cost growth can be contained without sacrificing quality of care only if health care cost growth more generally is contained. But despite the difficulties – indeed, because of the difficulties – it is essential that action be taken soon, particularly to control health care costs.

After the revised Social Security and Medicare announcement the world began to wonder: Can the US hold onto its AAA credit rating?

“The US government has had a triple-A credit rating since 1917,” David Walker, now president and CEO of the Peterson G. Peterson Foundation, commented in the Financial Time s following the release of the Trustees report, “ but it is unclear how long this will continue to be the case. In my view, either one of two developments could be enough to cause us to lose our top rating.

“First, while comprehensive health care reform is needed, it must not further harm our nation ‘ s financial condition. Doing so would send a signal that fiscal prudence is being ignored in the drive to meet societal wants, further mortgaging the country’s future.

“Second, failure by the federal government to create a process that would enable tough spending, tax and budget control choices to be made after we turn the corner on the economy would send a signal that our political system is not up to the task of addressing the large, known and growing structural imbalances confronting us.”

Of course, we must note that the whole credit rating biz is…well…corrupt. The agencies that are responsible for dishing out sovereign credit ratings (S&P, Fitch, and Moody’s) are the same ones that left us all out to dry in 2007. (Of course, mortgage – backed securities get a AAA…housing prices never fall!) Rest assured, if Wall Street can buy its way into AAA, Uncle Sam surely can, too.

But even Moody’s is starting to hedge their bets. They’ve since created three subdivisions within their AAA rating: resistant, resilient, and vulnerable…a corporate way of saying the good, the bad, and the ugly. While the United States isn’t in the worst of the bunch, it’s certainly not the best.

Regards,

Bill Bonner and Addison Wiggin
for The Daily Reckoning
Yikes! Sorry to hear that IL. UGH is right. :(

What happened to that rule that if you sell your house
it has to be brought up to energy efficient levels?
Quoting latitude25:
What happened to that rule that if you sell your house
it has to be brought up to energy efficient levels?
Isn't that the one that is in the Cap & Bill trade that has not been officially passed yet?
Yes CG...that is right. There is a provision in the Cap and Trade bill that will require the entire country to upgrade every home sold or bought to meet California's energy standards. It is obviously on the back burner in the Senate. Can't see how they will get it passed, but I'm guessing it passed the house first to be used as a bargaining chip for the Healthcare bill...???

Quoting homegirl:
Yes CG...that is right. There is a provision in the Cap and Trade bill that will require the entire country to upgrade every home sold or bought to meet California's energy standards. It is obviously on the back burner in the Senate. Can't see how they will get it passed, but I'm guessing it passed the house first to be used as a bargaining chip for the Healthcare bill...???





HG, are you sure you're not a lobbyist? Sure you don't live in DC? Do you know where the Capital Grill is? ;P
#206 MLC they passed the mercury light bulb thing.( I cant believe the environwakos would stand for that) They have all the power in the world to pass whatever they want. Unless we Americans continue to stand up to them in a civil manor.
Our "leaders" stand up there during town hall meetings and say. I do not understand why you do not trust us. We are trying to discuss the bills.
What they do not discuss is the fact that they first tried to pass(ram thru)a bill no one had read. And now they feign outrage over not being able to discuss the bill. I guess it would have been fine if they could have just passed it before the outrage started.
They say well the bill is not final. Why dont we trust them. We dont trust them because of what was originally in the bill!
They put it in there. It must be what they want.
We are supposed to trust that they wont try to slip it in under some future farm bill or something?
America is not that gullible.
Quoting spathy:
America is not that gullible.



Sometimes I wonder, spathy. Someties I wonder.
I know MLC. But America will always be America as long as people like you,me and others exist.
The real hope and change.
To all. I am now sitting here tearing up. The fact that I just had to post the reality of #208.
I never would have thought that My America could get to such a point.
Or maybe I did?
I just could not think such a horror.

Ok :) hows the weather where you are?
{{Spathy!!}}

It's raining...but then, I guess you already knew that. ;)
Lobbyist? Me? Nah...just trying to be an informed citizen. According to some...I'm misinformed. lol
HG. No you are mis misinformed.
God bless the slow steady rain I am getting:)
Did your Grandparents ever say to you they no longer understand the world?
I should never feel compelled to make that statement until I am at leas 80 yrs old.
But I am!
I grow weary of the progressives version of "shock and awe"
They are counting on our limited ability to combat multiple things at one time.
"MLC they passed the mercury light bulb thing.
( I cant believe the environwakos would stand for that)"

I will never understand that one.
They advise us to limit our intake of certain fish
because of very minute traces of mercury.
Then put light bulbs in our houses that you need to
put on a hazmat suit to change the bulbs.

"They are counting on our limited ability
to combat multiple things at one time."

That is exactly what they are doing spathy.
And lying about everything all at the same time.
218. mobal
Quoting latitude25:
"MLC they passed the mercury light bulb thing.
( I cant believe the environwakos would stand for that)"

I will never understand that one.
They advise us to limit our intake of certain fish
because of very minute traces of mercury.
Then put light bulbs in our houses that you need to
put on a hazmat suit to change the bulbs.

"They are counting on our limited ability
to combat multiple things at one time."

That is exactly what they are doing spathy.
And lying about everything all at the same time.


GEE....Oh I mean GE
I'm just sick of this whole mess.

Borrow, spend! Borrow, spend. Borrow, spend!
Borrow, spend! Borrow, spend. Borrow, spend!
Borrow, spend! Borrow, spend. Borrow, spend!
Borrow, spend! Borrow, spend. Borrow, spend!
Borrow, spend! Borrow, spend. Borrow, spend!
Borrow, spend! Borrow, spend. Borrow, spend!
Borrow, spend! Borrow, spend. Borrow, spend!
Borrow, spend! Borrow, spend. Borrow, spend!
Borrow, spend! Borrow, spend. Borrow, spend!
Borrow, spend! Borrow, spend. Borrow, spend!
Borrow, spend! Borrow, spend. Borrow, spend!
Borrow, spend! Borrow, spend. Borrow, spend!Borrow, spend! Borrow, spend. Borrow, spend!
It's spend and tax

From the same people that lectured all of US
on our irresponsible charging, spending, and
buying houses WE could not afford.

Lectured all of US, about running up debt
that WE could not afford.

What a bunch of rear handi wipes.
Quoting latitude25:
What a bunch of rear handi wipes.


Yup!

LOL I'm going to hide over here for a while.
When GR sees what we all did to his blog,
he's going to kill us all! LOL
Quoting latitude25:
LOL I'm going to hide over here for a while.
When GR sees what we all did to his blog,
he's going to kill us all! LOL
Trust me LAT, he will find you....:)
Quoting latitude25:
LOL I'm going to hide over here for a while.
When GR sees what we all did to his blog,
he's going to kill us all! LOL


hehe, naaaah! He's good folk! ;)
225. mobal
I am going to start a new crop on my land, it consist of 16% protein, the roots contain starch, livestock likes it..It has even been suggested that it may become a valuable asset for the production of cellulosic ethanol...AND YOU CANT KILL THE STUFF!

What is it?
MLC - you are in trouble...they are all moving to your blog. LOL

I'm watching the 24's and blog hopping tonight.
Quoting mobal:
I am going to start a new crop on my land, it consist of 16% protein, the roots contain starch, livestock likes it..It has even been suggested that it may become a valuable asset for the production of cellulosic ethanol...AND YOU CANT KILL THE STUFF!

What is it?


Kudzu? ;)
damnit MLC you beat me by a 1/2 second! LOL
229. mobal
Quoting moonlightcowboy:


Kudzu? ;)


Yep! LOL! It will grow over the bad debt houses!!!
Dandilion? Or peanut?
231. mobal
Kind of blend them into the landscape.......
Quoting conchygirl:
MLC - you are in trouble...they are all moving to your blog. LOL

I'm watching the 24's and blog hopping tonight.


LOL, CG! That's fine - I'm too tired to concern myself. AOK, as long as y'all keep the long-winded, shallow-minded left-wing charlatans out-balanced! ;)
Or Kudzu!
Quoting mobal:


Yep! LOL! It will grow over the bad debt houses!!!


Hey, maybe we could drop a few sprouts up near the Capital? ;)
but it dies back in the winter.

Mobal, do you know the story about Cello?
That's the Alabama ethanol plant that conned the EPA
into believing they were actually producing ethanol.

The EPA based 70-80% of how much ethanol we were supposed
to be using on one companys production of ethanol - Cello.

Only problem was, Cello had tricked them, and Cello wasn't producing ethanol at all, just taking everyone's money. LOL
236. mobal
Cool, I can put leftwing crap up!

trying .. hand hurts... chest hurting.... LEFT arm numb...Brain Numb...

OK, Brain Numb, I am ready!
237. mobal
Quoting latitude25:
but it dies back in the winter.

Mobal, do you know the story about Cello?
That's the Alabama ethanol plant that conned the EPA
into believing they were actually producing ethanol.

The EPA based 70-80% of how much ethanol we were supposed
to be using on one companys production of ethanol - Cello.

Only problem was, Cello had tricked them, and Cello wasn't producing ethanol at all, just taking everyone's money. LOL


Yes, somewhat. I will have to look into it more.
"OK, Brain Numb, I am ready!"

ROTFLMBO ok, now that was funny!

Got a health care question.

Since this is going to be government health care,
it will come out of our taxes, and we will all pay
for it right?

So why would anyone buy Blue Cross and pay extra,
when you are already paying anyway?
Quoting latitude25:
"OK, Brain Numb, I am ready!"

ROTFLMBO ok, now that was funny!

Got a health care question.

Since this is going to be government health care,
it will come out of our taxes, and we will all pay
for it right?

So why would anyone buy Blue Cross and pay extra,
when you are already paying anyway?



There are so many things wrong with this bill - and "honorable" or "smart" just doesn't fit any of it.
240. mobal
Quoting latitude25:
"OK, Brain Numb, I am ready!"

ROTFLMBO ok, now that was funny!

Got a health care question.

Since this is going to be government health care,
it will come out of our taxes, and we will all pay
for it right?

So why would anyone buy Blue Cross and pay extra,
when you are already paying anyway?


But its not a single payer bill!!

# acres beach front Arazona...Cheap!
"Yes, somewhat. I will have to look into it more."

If you can imagine, they took a bottle of gasoline, regular right out of the pump petroleum based gasoline,
to the EPA, and convinced them it was ethanol.

Then convinced the EPA that they could produce it for about $16 a barrel, or something ridiculously cheap
like that.

And the EPA bought it hook line and sinker. LOL

Then the EPA designed all their guidelines for getting us off of petroleum
and on to ethanol, based of what Cello was supposed to produce.

and Cello can't make a quart of ethanol. LOL
Quoting latitude25:
"OK, Brain Numb, I am ready!"

ROTFLMBO ok, now that was funny!

Got a health care question.

Since this is going to be government health care,
it will come out of our taxes, and we will all pay
for it right?

So why would anyone buy Blue Cross and pay extra,
when you are already paying anyway?
They wouldn't....we've pretty much been told that if/when the 'govt plan' is implemented that our company will no longer offer medical and we'll all go under the govt plan.....surprise, surprise, surprise....horrible.
243. mobal
Ok all, its getting late. MLC, thanks for the blog.

Remember all sometimes humor is good. I know that there is nothing funny about what is going go, but we must keep our own spirits up, and humor helps at times.

Night all!
Quoting conchygirl:
They wouldn't....we've pretty much been told that if/when the 'govt plan' is implemented that our company will no longer offer medical and we'll all go under the govt plan.....surprise, surprise, surprise....horrible.


I've explained some of this before. There are many small to medium business employers who struggle to offer group insurance. They teeter on the edge of being able to offer it anyways, but they do. They make every effort. I know, I've been there helping to make it happen. But, this will just send them over the edge to abandon it, considering the economic contraction. Often times, insurance was a recruiting tool and helped to retain talent. That will go by the way side.

And, does anyone have any scoop on the self-insured - partially or totally? What will these companies do? Will they disperse funds to employees? There are more of these than one realizes.
Quoting mobal:
Ok all, its getting late. MLC, thanks for the blog.

Remember all sometimes humor is good. I know that there is nothing funny about what is going go, but we must keep our own spirits up, and humor helps at times.

Night all!


Have a good sleep, Mobal. Thanks.
"and we've got to get it right the first time"

They really are not just arrogant.
Their arrogance comes from their belief that they
really are right.

Just like many people believe that Chavez, Castro, Marx, etc etc are right.

You can't talk to them, you can not even reason with them, it's their core belief.
Even showing them hundreds of examples of where the
exact same thing was tried in the past and failed,
they do not see the failure.
247. mobal
I know that there is nothing funny about what is going go

Now thats funny that I wrote that.....
Quoting latitude25:
"and we've got to get it right the first time"

They really are not just arrogant.
Their arrogance comes from their belief that they
really are right.

Just like many people believe that Chavez, Castro, Marx, etc etc are right.

You can't talk to them, you can not even reason with them, it's their core belief.
Even showing them hundreds of examples of where the
exact same thing was tried in the past and failed,
they do not see the failure.



Oh, hell, Lat - for many it's not their beliefs at all. Hell, many of them don't know what they believe. They want to go hug a dayumed tree and little do they know that trees will be here long after we're all dead and gone, having killed each other or starved to death from government doing stupid things like ploughing fields under instead of feeding hungry people - all in the mighty name of subsidy, control, smartness and all that crap.

Most of these self-imposed prognosticators actually believe all this fantasy. They really do. And, what just surprises the heck out of me is how they absolutely refuse to look at our pathetic fiscal condition. If they did it wouldn't take rocket science to understand that we're in this position because of government - so, what in the sam hell would make them think government can get us out of it? It absolutely blows my mind - their kind of thinking.
249. mobal
One last one.

Could it be EGO's. Think about this.
Quoting mobal:
One last one.

Could it be EGO's. Think about this.


Yup, Mobal! You're probably right!

I suspect maybe 2 of 10 could tell you which country Chavez hales, much less know anything of his political persuasions.

I'll bet two or three would tell you he's a leight-weight boxer...and from southern California! ;)
....here's some more rumor-based information for those that would discount real truth. LOL.

Jobless claims up, retail sales dip unexpectedly


Unexpected rise in new jobless claims, drop in July retail sales point to strained recovery


WASHINGTON (AP) -- The number of newly laid-off workers filing claims for unemployment benefits rose unexpectedly last week and retail sales disappointed in July. The latest government reports reinforced concerns about how quickly consumers will be able to contribute to a broad economic recovery in the U.S.

"There is really no positive spin to put on these numbers," Jennifer Lee, an economist with BMO Capital Markets, wrote in a research note. "The U.S. consumer remains very weak. The jobs situation, while slowly improving, is still dismal."

The Labor Department says initial claims increased to a seasonally adjusted 558,000, from 554,000 the previous week.
How about a lesser known economic indicator. LoL

NEW YORK (TheStreet) -- Call it a sign of the times -- tobacco stocks are considered best buys by at least one fund manager, Charles Norton who oversees the Vice Fund(VICEX Quote).

Granted, Norton's specialty is investing in companies that capitalize on bad habits such as smoking and drinking.

Yet it still says something about the state of the economy that stocks such as Philip Morris International (PMI Quote) are delivering great returns. (To read more of Norton's comments, click over to Gregg Greenberg's interview.)

According to Norton, global cigarette demand is "proving to be exceptionally resilient."

That explains the 7% jump in Philip Morris International, which holds the international rights to the top-selling Marlboro brand, and the 17% jump in shares of Altria (MO Quote), which peddles Marlboros and other smokes in the U.S.

Reynolds American(RAI Quote) -- home of the Camel, Pall Mall and Winston brands -- is another smoking hot stock with an 11% gain this year.

On the booze side, brewers are the big winners. Expensive wines and single malt scotches may squeeze the wallet too much, but beer is a recession necessity.

Anheuser-Busch InBev is enjoying a 61% spike this year -- despite the brouhaha over the presidential beer party that raised the question of whether it's un-American to drink Bud now that it's owned by the Belgians. SABMiller, another foreign owner of an American classic, is up 15% year to date.

Meanwhile, Boston Beer Co.(SAM Quote), maker of Samuel Adams and one of the few remaining publicly traded U.S. brewers, is up 35%.

Cheap wines also illustrate the point. For example, Charles Shaw, aka Two Buck Chuck , which is sold at Trader Joe's grocery stores for $1.99, is among the top-searched topics this morning on Google (GOOG Quote).

While this is by no means a scientific evaluation, the evidence indicates that the economy is driving people to smoke and drink more.
So for the health of the nation, we need this recession to be over.

Then we can get back to drinking from the top shelf, which would be much appreciated by the folks at Brown-Forman(BFB Quote) since the maker of Jack Daniel's and Korbel champagnes is suffering a 17% drop in its share price.


--Written by Glenn Hall in New York.

253. LOL, Oss. I guess that's part of the Misery Index, huh? ;)
Wal-Mart posts flat 2Q profit, beats expectations

NEW YORK (AP) -- Wal-Mart Stores Inc. on Thursday reported second-quarter income virtually unchanged from a year ago, but results beat Wall Street expectations.

The world's largest retailer also raised the low end of its profit outlook as it benefits from a series of cost-cutting moves, particularly from inventory controls, and draws frugal shoppers away from rivals.

But Wal-Mart officials cautioned that the economy will continue to remain difficult in coming months, forcing their shoppers to keep buying less-expensive store label products and smaller-pack sizes. And they don't expect the holiday season to be dramatically better than last year.

"Overall, our customers are more disciplined in their spending," Mike Duke, Wal-Mart's president and chief executive, told investors during a pre-recorded call Thursday. "There's a new normal" of saving more and spending less, he added.



...the barometer chimes in.
Interesting read from CNN, what CNN?

Jobs = Consumers = taxes = funding for gov programs

The equation does not work without Jobs !

http://money.cnn.com/2009/08/13/news/economy/retail_sales_July/?postversion=2009081311

BTW, links pop up a dialogue box now to ask if you want to go there and shows the link path for review prior to going. Hopefully, that will save some from the viral fate some have experienced.

Consumers not feeling a recovery


255, that is representative of the productivity numbers we saw at record levels recently. Productivity happens at the consumer level also :)

Quoting Ossqss:
The equation does not work without Jobs!



Would somebody please thump BaRockStar on those cauliflower ears and tell him this please? TIA! ;P
Post-Crash Dynamics


Call me skeptical. But if you look carefully at the economic data that shows improvement, and correct for the impact of government outlays, it is difficult to find anything but continued deterioration in private demand and investment. What we do see is a government that has run what is now a trillion dollar deficit year-to-date, representing some 7% of GDP. That sort of tab will undoubtedly buy some amount of Cool-Aid, but it has been something of a disappointment to watch how eagerly investors have guzzled it down. It is not at all clear that short-term, deficit-financed improvement necessarily implies sustained growth in the context of a deleveraging cycle. This is like somebody borrowing money from their Uncle and then celebrating that their income has gone up.

Moreover, it might be enticing to look at a chart of the S&P 500 and envision a quick return to 2007 highs and beyond, but it is important to recognize that those highs were based on profit margins about 50% above historical norms, combined with an elevated P/E multiple of about 19 against those earnings. Even if the economy is poised for a sustained recovery here, the belief that those joint outliers will be quickly re-established goes against historical precedent.

When markets crashes are coupled with changes in the fundamentals that supported the preceding bubble – as we observed in the post-1929 market, the gold market of the 1980's, and the post-1990 Japanese market, and currently observe in the deflation of the recent debt bubble – they typically do not recover quickly. Indeed, the hallmark of these post-crash markets is the very extended sideways adjustment that they experience, generally for many years.

The chart below updates the position of the S&P 500 (red line) in the context of other post-crash bubbles. The horizontal axis is measured in months. Note that very strong and extended interim advances have been part and parcel of similar experiences.

The intent here is not to argue that the U.S. stock market must by necessity follow the same extended adjustment that followed prior burst bubbles. Rather, the intent is to underscore that it is dangerous to infer that structural difficulties have vanished simply because a market enjoys a strong post-crash advance.



My friend James Montier at SocGen draws a similar pattern from a larger historical collection of post-crash bubbles - including the above instances, as well as others such as the South Sea Bubble and the Railroad Bubble of the 1840's. The underlying theme is that the adjustment period following the bursting of a bubble tends to be very extended.



I understand the eagerness of investors to put the entire credit crisis behind them and look ahead to a recovery of the prior highs, but these hopes are based on the assumption that a positive boost to GDP, once achieved, will propagate into a full-fledged recovery. Again, however, no economic improvement is evident in the behavior of consumer demand and capital spending, once you adjust for the impact of government spending (particularly transfer payments).

Yes, we have observed a massive reallocation of global resources from savers (who have bought newly issued Treasury debt) toward mismanaged financial institutions that made bad loans. Yes, there are certainly favorable short-run economic numbers that can be achieved by running a year-to-date federal deficit equal to seven percent of the U.S. economy. The problem is that this money does not come from nowhere. We have effectively sold an identical ownership claim on our future production to those individuals and foreign governments who bought the Treasuries. Government “stimulus” is not free money. The continued attempt to bail out bad loans with good resources (largely foreign savings) will end up costing our nation some of our most productive assets, which will be acquired by foreign countries and investors for years to come.
Warning over US cash-for-clunkers scheme

The popular US cash-for-clunkers programme may be drawing money from other consumer purchases and could also undermine future car sales, US economists have warned.

Motor vehicle and parts sales, down 8 per cent on the year, jumped 2.4 per cent from June, according to data from the US commerce department on Thursday, but other retail sales fell 0.6 per cent in July.

“With income flows very constrained and household balance sheets over- leveraged, any incremental increase is likely to weigh on non-automotive sales,” said Joshua Shapiro, chief US Economist at MFR, a consultancy, noting that fading interest suggests current car sales are borrowed from the future.

“Anyone thinking about buying cars in the next several months might as well do it now when the government is giving away $4,500.” Ford, whose small Focus saloon and larger Escape have proved popular under the scheme, on Thursday announced that it was increasing North American production to meet demand. General Motors is also considering following suit. The cash-for-clunkers programme, in which buyers trade in old gas guzzlers for vehicles that consume less fuel and receive a rebate of up to $4,500 (€3,150, £2,700), was dubbed by Barack Obama, US president, “a much-needed boost” to the US economy.

After exhausting its $1bn funds in July, Congress last week allocated an extra $2bn to the programme. In total it is expected to fund up to 750,000 car purchases.

George Pipas, Ford’s sales analyst, said that dealers’ new-vehicle sales are currently “eye-poppingly high” compared to a year ago. But Ford on Thursday rejected the suggestions that the scheme was drawing significant consumer spending from other items. “This is a drop in the bucket compared to overall purchases of goods and services”,“This is exactly what fiscal stimulus is supposed to do,” said Ellen Cromwick-Hughes, Ford Motors’ chief economist. But a post-clunkers dip in car sales would come as the rest of the US stimulus is fading.

“It’s a nice success, but there’s a macroeconomic risk going forward,” said Joseph Brusuelas of Moody’s Economy.com. “[In] the first quarter of 2010, the stimulus will begin to wither, and consumption which would have otherwise occurred next year will have occurred in the second half of 2009.




....anyone smelling more Federal intervention yet? ;)
Great posts today MLC. You and Jer keep it up. I'm busy reading between working.
"...the barometer chimes in."

I look at Walmart first,
then Home Depot and Lowes.
MLC - hopefully you have given up over there on Auburn's blog...good that you tried, however. Thanks for your attempts. So sad!!!
From agora finacial's 5 min forecast on Walmart:

In a similar vein, Wal-Mart’s latest sales numbers missed expectations this morning. While still profitable, the world’s biggest retailer saw same-store sales fall 1.2% in the second quarter -- well below the Street’s forecast of a 1% rise.

Interestingly, Wal-Mart enjoyed 13 straight months of better same-store sales from April 2008-April 2009. Then they suddenly stopped reporting monthly sales and switched to quarterly. Now, in their first quarterly report, sales are down. Hmm… must be a coincidence.
And also:

Mark your calendars… the Fed has promised to stop manipulating the bond market by October.

That’s the meat of the news from yesterday’s Federal Open Market Committee meeting. They will “gradually slow” the pace of its official Treasury purchases, but the $300 billion program will now run through October instead of ending in September, as the Fed had previously scheduled.

(Of course, as our friend Chuck Butler often points out, that’s just the official word. The Fed has other ways to skin this cat. For example, they’re rumored to be striking deals with primary dealers for post-auction purchases. Instead of making official bond purchases at the auction, the Fed will have a primary dealer buy the bonds and then sell them to the Fed… same debt monetization, but without that pesky “transparency” and media attention.)

Outside of the Treasury bond announcement, the FOMC statement was about what you’d expect: Interest rates were left at 0% and will remain “exceptionally low” for an “extended period.” While “economic activity is leveling out,” it will “likely remain weak for some time.” And, of course, “inflation will remain subdued for some time.”




--
What a profound short little paragraph that says it all…..
"You cannot legislate the poor into freedom by legislating the wealthy out of freedom. What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that my dear friend, is about the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it."
~~~~ Dr. Adrian Rogers, 1931

Quoting MissNadia:


--
What a profound short little paragraph that says it all…..
"You cannot legislate the poor into freedom by legislating the wealthy out of freedom. What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that my dear friend, is about the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it."
~~~~ Dr. Adrian Rogers, 1931




EXACTLY, Nadia! Thanks for posting that.
WOW...who thought every mistake currently being made by our gov't could be summed up in one little paragraph??
Cuba would be the perfect model for that.
Wonderfully put. But the mistakes go back decades.
Hypothetical: What would happen if we eliminated SS, Medicaid, and Medicare along with the requirement that hospitals treat anyone regardless of their ability to pay?
Another one bites the dust!

http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2009/08/14/business/business-uk-colonial-takeover-bbandt.html

Colonial Bank is Toast

Will Toxic Loans Wipe Out Smaller Banks?
Quoting ILwatcher:
Hypothetical: What would happen if we eliminated SS, Medicaid, and Medicare along with the requirement that hospitals treat anyone regardless of their ability to pay?

This is the major drawback with blogs.
I can assure you that anyone within my arm's reach that proffered such a hypothetical .....
Current catastropic health insurance "is" affordable. You just have to make the commitment to be self sufficient. Any other arguement is pure garbage and we all know it.
We' have a group of selfserving, greedy, irresponsibles waiting for "daddy" to foot their bill. "STAY OUT OF MY POCKET BOOK"!!!
For those who are destitute and in poverty, that's why we have the provisions you toy with.
Anyone who takes away my Social Security....


snicker...

ok, that's kinda funny and I wish you'd filled in the ....

I notice you didn't answer the question.
274. ILwatcher 7:54 PM EDT on August 14, 2009
snicker...

snicker back at ya...
CAUTION: We don't do personal attacks in this blog.


SS will be gone before too many years anyway, regardless of hc reform. It's not a matter of if, but when.


Merle was ahead of the times, apparently. An Oakie Visionary? ;) Shoot, I like just about anything Merle sings. This was a good one.
If past times = good times, then I think that just may be the case, mlc.
Quoting ILwatcher:
If past times = good times, then I think that just may be the case, mlc.


Yup, 'twas good for good number of years. The "great experiment" - America. We've simply proven that if given the opportunity, the lazy and irresponsible will legislate their general welfare at the expense of the few who carry the burden for the many. And, unfortunately there are people who will govern with that perspective out of lust for power and greed - they govern with no guilt or shame for their ways and fully with no respect and committent to our sovereignty.
277 MLC
Merle was ahead of the times, apparently. An Oakie Visionary? ;) Shoot, I like just about anything Merle sings. This was a good one. **********************************************************************************************

Until you've "lost" your liberty you can't feel the pain and remorse. You can't feel the rebirth and passion upon returning to society and the dedication to preserving that what was lost.
You are correct. "The lazy and irresponsible". "The squeeky wheel".

I do think America as we've known it will cease to exist. We've become a nation of people who depend on entitlements and credit and that will have to change. The biggest problems I see are

1) the magnitude of our debt

2) an aging populace who thought they were putting $$$ into a system that would support their retirement and medical needs without keeping a close eye on the folks standing guard over the piggy bank (there's no money in the bank, folks)

3) a smaller next generation who have lived a life of relative ease on credit and have no basis or knowledge of how to live on less or an ability to support their elders themselves

4) an uniformed, possibly under-educated people who have taken to rely on shock-jocks for their hard news and react to the buttons being pushed as if the information presented was factual. If the talking heads had one tiny bit of personal discomfort at stake in the "issues" they are flaming then I might think differently. Unfortunately, they push the buttons, inflame their listeners with innuendo and half-truths, and then laugh all the way to the bank (or their stuffed mattresses, as the case may be).

5) career politicians who are more worried about getting reelected than serving the public interest

6) political parties who are more concerned with playing an us vs them game of power grabbing and influence peddling than working together to build legislation that encompasses differing views for balance.

7) a business model that looks only to reward top managers

8) globalization, both as a vendor and a consumer

9) a me, me, me perspective on just about every aspect of life, including being blind to the impact of the choices we make on ourselves and those around us


The next 10-15 years will determine how things turn out. I think we're headed into a Japan-type depression of start-and-stop recoveries that lasted 20 years before settling down. We won't come out the same.

My crystal ball sees the entitlement programs gone, a younger generation that just doesn't have it in them to take care of the problems associated with the needs of 72 million new elderly (most of whom failed to prepare to take care of themselves), and the government .... I don't know, my crystal ball is pretty fuzzy when it comes to the future of our government.
I just can't quite figure out what this reminds me of ??? Thoughts? :)