By: joealaska , 5:52 PM GMT on July 14, 2014

Sunday started quietly. Mornings are usually spent with the computer and coffee. I usually head out later for whatever. While I enjoyed the morning I noticed my neighbors were disappearing one by one. One minute they are there, next minute gone. Suddenly I noticed I was the only camper remaining. Shades of Taylorsville, Kentucky.

I took a ride through the countryside north to Spokane. Another college town, here it was Gonzaga. The Palouse seemed to be pretty weak around there. I admit I have been a little disappointed since I arrived looking for the Palouse scenery. Don't get me wrong. It is beautiful here. But I have been through before, before I even knew there was a NAME to the region. And I saw a few BIG hills that I have yet to see this time. Hills that got steeper as they got higher, until the hill rounded out at the summit. Almost like a rounded off volcano. I specifically remember noticing how the farmers plowed as high as they dared before it was too steep. I remember seeing cows grazing up on those hills, so steep I wondered WHAT ARE THEY THINKING? Wondering how often a bovine slips and tumbles down into a ravine.

Those extreme hills are out there, nearby. The zealous is a big area. I cannot see it all in the short time I am here. I could check out the specific routes I have driven through before and repeat. I think they may be south of here, near Lewiston, Idaho. That is a nice town. Will head that direction next. I would like to head north searching for some coolness. Route 2 still has not been explored like I wanted a few years ago. The Dakotas are waiting. But first I want to see my sister and brother-in-law. Then it is north time.

Last night I took another sunset ride out into the countryside. But there were some rare clouds coming through. It was getting dark early. I took a few pictures and came back. Meanwhile another camper had showed up and was parked a couple campsites away. It was a couple, with three dogs. Two were big, some type of hounds. One was a small white hairy thing, probably for comic relief. They kept to themselves and set up their site. Fine with me.

The evening was perfect. The clouds kept it cool, and a nice breeze was blowing. I sat out on the easy chair (and ottoman) and relaxed. Dutchie was nearby sitting, and Fluff even came out and was sniffing around close to the RV. In one second it went from pacifying to chaos.

Suddenly those two dogs were busting into the campsite (actually all three were there, but who cared about the little one) and chasing the cats. The dogs appeared from underneath LEGGS, so there was no warning. The cats scattered, but went into avoidance mode, running in many different directions versus a straight line to the nearby warehouse. Or inside the RV. It was a vortex of fur. Hard to tell at one point who was chasing who. Dutchie was circling back and forth, with a big dog close by. But she was always in control. Shortly she grew tired of the chase and sprinted to the warehouse where she slid safely under the building.

Meanwhile Fluff had seemed to avoid the main assault. She had stayed nearby Leggs mainly with a strategy of dodging versus full out running. Once Fluff reaches peak speed, it is harder for her to quickly change directions with her massive girth. It is simply a matter of momentum. But once Dutchie disappeared, Fluff became the focus of attention.

It was hard for me to stop the whole thing. I was right in the middle of it, but the best I could do was slow down the dogs. I kept yelling at them to GET OUT. I jumped in front of them as a cat ran by.

I do not remember sensing this was a life and death deal. The dogs did not seem to be hell bent on blood. Could they have been actually playing to a point? What would have happened if they caught a cat? The dogs made no move to me, and they had plenty of chances.

That little dog just watched as he stood in the middle of the action. I could have footballed him outta there, but passed.

It reminded me of a similar incident a couple weeks ago when I was in Buffalo, WY.
A big dog from the next camp site got tired of having Dutchie watching him, and suddenly charged. Dutchie was ready and started a circling routine, where the dog got close, then Dutchie would suddenly change direction and be free. I watched from the doorway of the RV. A couple times Dutchie was coming around and I figured she would bolt inside and be safe. But she ran right by the stairs and kept moving. One time she was running right toward me and I yelled for her, but she seemed to choose NOT going inside.

Now Fluff was in the same dilemma. And she chose to run inside. I was outside only a few feet away, and was totally surprised when that big dog followed her right up the stairs… It was here that the dog suddenly stopped and realized he was not supposed to be there. And I was in the doorway blocking him. I did not want to BLOCK him, but I had to get inside to get him out. We stared at each other for a second, Fluff was hiding under the drivers seat. It was here I wondered if the situation was really dangerous. The dog was cornered, and he could have been aggressive toward me. But I moved aside and yelled GET OUT, and he did immediately.

Maybe Dutchie knew that running into LEGGS could be a DEAD end.

Fluff was safe inside, Dutchie was safe in her own little world. So I walked around to look toward the camp site they had come from, and the owners were rounding them up and getting them inside. They never said anything to me. I watched the lady walk by in a few minutes as she went to check the bulletin board at the camp site. She saw me and said nothing. I just sat and watched her finally leave.

They were in their camper until about 10:30 this AM when they finally came out. The guy had both big dogs on leashes, and the lady had the little dog loose with her, but she was carrying a leash if needed.

Thinking about it, I have seen many situations where dogs chased cats. I do not recall one of them ever catching the cat, though. I am sure that can happen, and it could be ugly. I HAVE seen situations where it got close, and the cat stops and has a face off with the dog. Usually the dog backs off.

Playing Palouse Ridge Golf this afternoon in Pullman.

My last full day is tomorrow here, and I think I will go to Palouse Falls west of here. I feel like I have already been there, after seeing the photos online and from other campers. Seems like there is one spot for the photographic MONEY SHOT, and I have seen it several times already. Hope it has a few more angles.

Then I need to figure out where I head Wednesday.

The views of the author are his/her own and do not necessarily represent the position of The Weather Company or its parent, IBM.

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39. WunderAlertBot (Admin)
11:16 PM GMT on July 20, 2014
joealaska has created a new entry.
38. Ylee
11:10 PM GMT on July 20, 2014
Joe, have you been to the ghost town of Mount Idaho yet? May be something interesting to see there!
Member Since: December 31, 1969 Posts: Comments:
37. Arbie
10:14 PM GMT on July 20, 2014
I guess we can't talk about dogs, since they lead to guns.
Member Since: December 31, 1969 Posts: Comments:
36. lotis2
5:27 PM GMT on July 20, 2014

Joe, write a new chapter about your travels, PLEASE!!

Are you doing any job searching while traveling?

We need fresh and enlightening comments from our favorite UK!!

Member Since: December 31, 1969 Posts: Comments:
35. ronnm
5:03 PM GMT on July 20, 2014
Sorry Joe and DM, I won't comment again ;)
Member Since: December 31, 1969 Posts: Comments:
34. joealaska
4:31 PM GMT on July 20, 2014
Sorry Mom, the blog has turned into a dud.
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33. dotmom
3:23 PM GMT on July 20, 2014
Some of these "comments" - epistles are way too long (and boring). I want to fall asleep before I can finish them. Sorry! :(

Just sayin'
Member Since: December 31, 1969 Posts: Comments:
32. ronnm
5:03 PM GMT on July 19, 2014
I thought I would add this one short ;) comment for those who may read this and decide to visit North Padre. It is a very nice place to go too. Dogs as mentioned are all well controlled, and everyone almost invariably, acts reasonably. No bats, any of that, are necessary there.

I support rangers and all they do, but whatever you do don't let your kids drive on the beach.

I did and was caught and got a ticket. I was on the beach driving which is totally legal, it was before the forth, pretty empty in this spot yet, so I allowed one of the kids to drive while I held one hand above the brake and gas and the other on the wheel(small car). We were going between 5 and 10 miles per hour pulling over whenever we encountered another car going the other way. My daughters car was following, The fine is no big deal, it is a 75 or maybe a 125 fine. I broke the law I can do the time ;)
The problem is the officer informed me is it is a must appear. Drunk drivers and such, sometimes do so in other areas, so this is likely why it is I personally surmise.

So I have to drive or fly, one thousand miles each way, back and forth, which amounts to probably a thousand in expenses hotel and all. For a 125 dollar ticket. I could handle it through a lawyer but that would likely be around a thousand as well as it is federal land and in another state. For this I must appear in court I cannot plead guilty and mail it in.
So if visiting, don't let your kids drive on the beach at all ;(
Trust me on that as well.
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31. ronnm
3:58 PM GMT on July 19, 2014
Arbie this is north Padre I am talking about. South Padre is subject to immigrant movement and occasional drug movement due to its proximity to Mexico and hence the drug trafficking trade into the US.

North Padre is more than a hundred miles away and it is impossible to transverse from South to North on the beach as in places it is impassable.Beach traffic is limited just about five or so miles from the North entry point. It becomes too hazardous due to sand and erosion.

No offense to South Padre as it has many fine hotels but unless you want to spend your time in one of them, the beach itself to my opinion is very very crowded and a bit of a circus to my opinion. Like beaches adjacent to many big cities. Probably I would find such places enjoyable as a kid but now not so much.

North is a bit more low key. Crowds on the weekends but not during the week and of holiday. There is only one campground but one can camp on the beach as well. The campground is almost never full and pretty well maintained. This July forth weekend was actually the first time I saw it absolutely full and I have been there many a time.

I thought about drugs and all that. But really there is no drug trade going on in north padre to speak of. None even smoke pot on the beaches, as it is well well patrolled. I have never smelled pot there not once. The rangers do a look round at the campground every day several times a day and patrol the beaches as well. And many government employees monitor the area constantly due to endangered species such as sea turtles. Many of which we did see this time ,actually in the water while we were body surfing. What a treat for the kids that was.

I like having the rangers around certainly most all following the law do.
But cameras in and out and any multitude of other devices doing who knows what.

My claim is not against law enforcement, in fact it is for it, and more of it, as to protect us against dogs and their owners if irresponsible, for one. My claim is the surveillance is a waste of taxpayer money. For every surveillance item there is a corresponding person who must check the data sort it and match it.

Money could be better spent in other ways such as providing additional rangers and things like that. Perhaps better facilities. Want to protect us the taxpayer, how about cameras where pedophiles lurk if cameras are one thing,

Little is served having a image of every face that visits each day to North Padre with no connection to any illegal activity. It is throwing out the bathwater with the baby. All are photographed and perhaps one tenth of one percent is doing something illegal. And the one tenth of one percent probably hide their identity as nothing prevents one from putting on a face mask, makeup, big hat or crouching down or otherwise disturbing the image. Everyone knows the cameras are there do you think the lawbreakers are the only ones who somehow do not?

Perhaps some will say license place? I say absolutely not the camera with flash is directly aimed in and out at the occupants faces. What sense that?

No it is overkill which is alright I guess if it didn't cost us so much money and our money could not be spent in ways that protect us so much better.

As a result of all the rangers, which is the exception not the norm on federal lands nowadays, all the dogs had their owners acting in a totally appropriate manner.
One person had three large aggressive dogs. As I approached with my little one he immediately called them back and had them behave. Perfect the way it is supposed to be.
Did he do it as he was a exceptional person? I say not a way under the sun. It is because he has so much actual peoples of enforcement in the area, he had to. And all do there act perfectly.

More actual people is what we need to the detriment of this other surveillance which is just a waste to us the taxpayer. What help me and my dog by a camera recording so many faces? A actual person even one just taking care of the trash, a lot of help to me.

This thing is out of control, this surveillance. It is not on topic only in this sense. This is a large part of why we are so unsafe in many areas. Money is diverted from real rangers and real people maintaining things to cameras taking pictures which have photos which can never and will never be used.

Think of it what purpose faces of all who visit north padre each day? How does that make people act more responsibly which is the real danger nowadays, not those other things. Those other things certainly occur and such things are needed in certain places, but this place and all places, absurd it is a waste of money.
I, and all my family and extended family, are about a thousand times more likely to be hurt by someone acting irresponsibly and the purpose of governments is first to protect from harm.

Money is limited and this is a why as to how much more of the things such as dog attacks are happening nowadays. We are often wasting our money in this area. Real people and real things, not this nonsense, such as pictures, it is absurd. No wrongdoing was ever stopped by a picture. Check youtube you see pictures of thousands of these things. And as to catching the people, seems more are not caught then years ago by far when there were no cameras but a whole lot police rangers and other per capita than there is today.

Someone is making some big dollars off this mania which is largely serving no purpose.

Joe, he would have not a single problem if the campground he was at and a thousand like it across the country had more real people doing things, and less cameras, doing nothing but undoubtably being serviced and having someone manage this useless data.

The data? If one of the kids is killed by a dog,(god forbid), or its owner, or any of that which may harm me personally, the data of 50,000 or so pictures of faces will serve no purpose to those investigating the issue at all. Trust me on that. Or think about it, how could it? Only by the furthest reaches of the imagination. Witnesses, persons description, which is far more than face, type car, license plate(which I think the ranger at the gate to go in does anyway) those are the things that will be used. Not that nonsense. The pictures are all predicated on the idea that the person going in will not alter their facial appearance in any manner. Which is highly unlikely if one is going to be doing bad things which most know they are. It is not like a crackhead going into a 7/11 where he lives, and needing crack so bad he disregards the cameras. This is a good half hours drive from Corpus proper and several miles from any building at all. People plan to go there for vacation/recreation, there are not crack heads there who act totally irresponsibly. Trust me on that as well. Corpus as cities go is pretty low key as well.

It is silly, it is just that none have thought about it. People rarely think about things at times nowadays.
Geeze Louise if you want to avoid them entirely, just jump in the back seat. It is silly, think about it. No one has thought about it in these days of mass surveillance. We are just so used to it.
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30. Arbie
12:49 PM GMT on July 19, 2014
In case anyone is interested. ..  South Padre is the way it is because it is within the 100-mile buffer zone around the Mexican border. The borderlands, where business is not really as usual. The US government officially calls it the Constitution-Free Zone. It keeps getting more and more violent for a variety of reasons. One does not enjoy the same rights there as in the rest of the country. Just a hop, skip, and a jump away, Mexico is a country where a president takes office by military coup. We're not bad at all compared to them.  Anyway, one way the Border Patrol is trying to deal with its limited budget is to use cameras in various ways. 
Member Since: December 31, 1969 Posts: Comments:
29. DHaupt
7:37 AM GMT on July 19, 2014
Joe, there is just such a spot in Yosemite. You can look back into the Yosemite Valley from "Tunnel View" which is above the valley floor at least a 1000 feet. I think Ansel Adams probably pitched his tent there. It is a marvelous view of nearly all of Yosemite's iconic features. But, the "sweet spot" is only about 5 feet in diameter. Otherwise, tree branches, rocks and foreground clutter mess up the picture. On a busy day, you will see photographers clustered there with their tripod legs tangled.

I discovered that the best time to visit Tunnel View was usually in the winter and/or when the weather was as bad as possible. One time, another serious photographer and I stood tripod-to-tripod freezing our buns off and covering our cameras with plastic wrap. We had the place to ourselves.
Member Since: December 31, 1969 Posts: Comments:
28. ronnm
3:59 PM GMT on July 18, 2014
Nothing I am saying is in any way intended on a slam of the Brits nor things done in a British way. it is a fine country with much to be said in the way of good about it. My favorite blog site prior to this was one in India (before it became overtly politicized during the election) I certainly appreciate a other point of view. I can estimate many here do as well. I as a American, find Americans quite dull, but that is a personal view. Ordinary, I can predict mainly what they will say and how they will react. Perhaps it is just that I am so used to them.

On the issue, all that said, I will repeat, this is all context. In this place on a national forest trail, one with a machete in a backpack is not unusual at all on trails. So none are calling police or anything like that. To do so, the police would consider the caller a bit mad, and likely subject them to questioning on their state of mind. It is true if I was running around with a machete in a suburb or the city I would be considered a bit askew, and there are some laws here against that; a six inch limit is present on knives in many cities.
But this is not that.

As stated the machete is in a pack worn on the back which leaves it mainly not visible,only the handle is visible so one seeing it would not think a thing about it. I could really wear it in the city none would notice it. Machetes have received a lot of bad press lately mainly on movie media as killing tools. They are not and largely have never been that. They are cutting tools for cutting brush. It is like the cowboys having handguns to shoot snakes and other things that threaten the herd, The movie industry makes a handgun into something that in the main is used to kill people in the old west, it never was like that. It is bunk to sell the movie, to make it more interesting. What fun is it to tell a story in which the old west was filled with cowboys doing nothing much but herding and running cattle and killing a occasional rattler or coyote who threatened the herd. Not many would watch that movie, it would be so boring, But that was how it was and is.
Machete ,one comic book type movie fellow is even named machete. Let me clear the air here, that is a movie invention. Machete's are used world wide and in places in the US to clear brush. Any review of my machete will be focusing on how it cuts brush and small logs not on its killing ability.
But like the baseball bat it can be used for differing things. However the mere carrying of these things in the US does not necessarily incite fear if they are not being used for other purpose.

If I take out my machete when dogs attack, it is for one reason, to protect myself from impending harm. That with me would mean several dogs attacking, as the bat would dispatch any singular dog. And the owner, if present is doing nothing to stop the attack.
So the owner then decides to shoot me, to boot, if he is carrying a gun. I say so what? I would be killed by dogs anyway. So what if he has a gun. I am going to likely die anyway, at least I go down fighting, and it would be a quicker death, let him shoot me.
Every year in my state of New Mexico peoples are killed by dogs, usually several each year. Most of them are gruesome horrible deaths. This year a young boy on the Indian reservation nearby was killed by a pack. So if he had a machete or a bat and protected himself and then someone shot him for protecting himself, I would consider that rational quite odd. Better as they say to be tried by 12 then carried by 6.
And in most years at least one is killed by bear, usually the old starving bears which can no longer get food in a proper manner.

Peoples tend to think the world is controllable safe and secure if one acts properly. Quite unfortunately as the initial blogger's incident attests sometimes bad things happen to good people. His incident was minor and no harm occurred but these things here in America are common.
For clarification I am not waving my machete at any loose dog or one who barks at me. I have never taken it out as it was not necessary. So I have no fear of being shot. If I take it out, that means I think I am going to go down to a dog attack(or bear attack) ,which means a large dog of specific breed.
So again I say shoot me. So what. We grab to hard onto life anyway as we age. We should have less concern not more, but more we have. I die then for good reason, the best, to protect myself justifiably from harm. This in years past was the governments priority role to first provide safety, but now they are to busy surveilling us and doing such things to protect us from more present dangers. So I then die for good reason.

As a aside I went to Padre Island Texas, a national seashore for vacation just last week. My picture was taken going in and out of the beach by stationary cameras, several of them. What was I going to terrorize or attack the sand? This place has gotten so strange the people don't even notice it. It would be much better if they devoted money to things that actually harm us then this, it is such a waste. How about more rangers so one could go to a park and not have their cats attacked by dogs? How about that instead?

I should perhaps then just not go in the forest, not jog on the trails not backpack? I say no, I will not do that. Better I be shot protecting myself from a pack of dogs than I give that up. Life is not so precious that I cannot enjoy it. I will not give up on life just because things and peoples are getting out of control.
PETA would probably throw me in jail for protecting myself from a attacking pack of dogs but the sheriffs and judges have not gotten that crazy just yet.
If they do I say arrest me then, it is better than dying by a pack of dogs, but I suspect they will not get that crazy.

Only to a extend can we allow the actions of others to define ours.

I thought I may add these things for perspective(yes I do edit my posts often but not usually after people have commented on them).

Here is a quote from a American newspaper on the problems on the Navajo Reservation which though not mentioned is one of the places I have often jogged as well, the Fort Defiance area of Arizona where my daughter worked for three years up until last May. Visiting her I would jog out onto the mountains in the area which is largely forest. Keep in mind in this area cattle will be found roaming the downtowns of Shiprock(the capital of the navajo nation), and Fort, this is again not the UK.

On the vast Navajo Nation, wildlife and animal control manager Kevin Gleason estimates there are four to five dogs for each of the more than 89,000 households %u2014 or as many as 445,000 dogs, most of which roam unchecked, killing livestock and biting people with alarming regularity.

"They kill everything," Gleason said in a recent interview. "Cats, dogs, cattle, sheep, horses. We've also had people severely injured by them. We've had people with horrendous bites. We just had a case ... where a man lost 37 sheep to a pack of dogs.
"We have that going on all the time. Our officers respond to more than 25 bite cases a month, and 25 livestock damage cases a month."

And looking at Wikipedia I found a list that is certainly not including all, but some by reports in newspapers(they don't even have the boy killed on the reservation this year)
One may look for oneself or trust me on the trend. Before 2001 never is the US number in double digits after is another story. Not mentioned I can only assume means no deaths.
For comparison
2014=15 so far.
Again these are just by print media verification and by my guess is shorting the number by at least half if not more but it shows trend clearly.

This is not the case in the UK, regarding dogs and attacks by dogs and trend, trust me on that I feel safe to say.
Personally my guess is PETA or some others have damped down the numbers in Wikipedia, but that is just conjecture.
The navajo nation warden speaks the truth of the situation in some places in the US.

You just don't know things are here UK no offense to you intended.

Another story this on the reservation, I had peoples let out two dogs on me coming back from a forest run . One a pit bull. They saw me jog past their place and coming back they let the dogs out. Specific to that area Americans(KIt Carson and the ArmY) forced them to march many hundred miles in winter in a attempt on control Indian raids, killing many hundred by starvation and cold years ago. The people, a small but present minority, in this place Fort Defiance, still to this day hate a certain race as representative of that. I am of that race, So they let the dogs out to harass I guess.
Waving my shirt around worked on that one. I had it off and it was handy. The dogs just looked vicious but were not. That scared them away.

That aside dog problems in the US are getting much worse, as I check the stats.

Hey Uk, when was the last time you had 445 thousand dogs roaming around in the UK unchecked killing things, as this warden speaks of? This is a area of part of only two states in the US, Arizona and New Mexico.
Trust me I have lived there on the res in Fort, he is speaking the truth. I took care of my daughters kids(which are all Navajo as is she) and spent quite a lot of time there jogging most every day there.

There I would carry a martial artist device which was recommended and given to me. As it was a town I could not carry my pack and thus was quite unsafe at times considering the circumstance.
Really anyone in America who does not have some form of self protection in not well policed places, to my opinion, they are living in the past, and putting themselves at risk. A America which existed perhaps years ago but is long long gone. The peoples have often turned to the bad to my opinion. I do not know why, but it is clear they have.

Off I go to jog not dog as it is too hot for him, but pack with weapons certainly I will carry, :)
This not the UK
Member Since: December 31, 1969 Posts: Comments:
27. casaford
1:43 PM GMT on July 18, 2014

I must apologize to you UK for the generalization. I was given that fact from an English friend that lives in London. She has had several incidents of petty crimes that has encouraged her to learn self defense. I do not have much research time for this type of subject as work for me is never less than 50 hours a week and kids are another 50. I did take a few minutes to look up the crime stats for England post gun ban and as usual it is politically spun depending on the side you start on. Most agree that because of the manner that countries tally crime there can’t be a good comparison. An example is that theft and assault are not categorized the same in all country’s. The fact is that certain types of crimes did seriously rise post gun ban in England. Depending on geography we already have serious crime issues. Many think a gun ban in the U.S. would only leave the criminal element in a stronger position. Who Know’s? It’s nothing that I loose sleep over. I’m not that emotionally tied to the subject.

I do enjoy your post’s, PLEASE keep them coming. It’s refreshing to get another perspective. And understand that we spend lot’s of time disagreeing on many subjects in the U.S. and SPEAKING FOR MYSELF I seldom feel personally attacked when another person disagrees or even throw’s in a light hearted jab that will mildly offend me. It goes with the territory. I can remember living in South Alabama for three years while in the Army. I can’t tell you how many times I was called a Yankee and reminded of the Confederate A#$ kickings handed out during the civil war. I never took offense, I wasn’t around for that period and don’t know anyone who was. I appreciate the fact that you personally have a sense of responsibility to protect the Crown. Your harsh response to PREACHERSKIDD "You should be embarrassed, but I doubt you are that self aware”. Says more about your character that his. RELAX we love Engalnd, We’ve died to protect England we would easily do it again. We appreciate the friendship with England. We think you are great. Is that enough A#$ kissing to get you to lighten up? I hope so.

Arbie - Deal with it! It’s a generalization with lots of truth. I was trained and brought up around guns to be respectful and responsible. Where I grew up we didn’t have Bloods and Crips running around shooting people at 14 years old. SEE CHICAGO THIS PAST FOURTH OF JULY. I believe that’s a large metro area you might want to check my geography on that.

Member Since: December 31, 1969 Posts: Comments:
26. Arbie
11:31 AM GMT on July 18, 2014
I think anyone will be offended when someone tries to make a sweeping statement about something they know better about. 
Personally I think it is best to try to ignore such comments and move on. Nobody is ever going to get much of anywhere speaking in generalities. 
As a geographer, one thing that speaks true is that trying to compare the United States and England and Australia is not valid regarding population density and issues associated with that. 
I myself take offense at the idea that all urban gun owners are irresponsible...
Meanwhile, I sure am enjoying your trip Joe! 
Member Since: December 31, 1969 Posts: Comments:
25. joealaska
4:00 PM GMT on July 17, 2014
Alone and isolated? HARPSTER, IDAHO.

And now, back to the pretty pictures.
Member Since: December 31, 1969 Posts: Comments:
24. dotmom
2:00 PM GMT on July 17, 2014
Hey, let's all take a deep breath and calm down. I know that Joe is in a place where he has poor Internet service and no phone service, so he can't even speak to this right now. I don't think this blog is meant for "he said/she said" or "we did/they did" kind of chatter. Our universe is in a world of hurt right now and I believe we should all be pulling together. America and England are allies - let's keep it that way. Whatever happened 200 plus years ago is history. Let's not act like children and do the nah, nah, nah thing.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it. Let's move on. Back to the weather.
Member Since: December 31, 1969 Posts: Comments:
23. calpoppy
1:10 PM GMT on July 17, 2014
Well said insideuk!

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22. insideuk
11:45 AM GMT on July 17, 2014
I'm sorry to have to interrupt the peace for a minute or two, but I have some issues with some comments made here.

Certain inaccuracies are apparent to me, and it certainly feels like my words have somehow been twisted to contrive an alternative meaning that somehow suits a few people.

So first, I HAD NOT ONE SINGLE INTENTION of turning this blog topic into a 'debate on guns and the right to carry' PREACHERSKIDD.

Yet you do appear to have attributed such to me.

Is it possible you were reading comments by someone else who is an American but you had a preference for attributing them to the solo Brit here PURELY as a means to include your JINGOISTIC CLAPTRAP?

To have brought up the subject of a S--T KICKING FOR THE BRITISH within this context was infantile machismo. It was the equivalent of you racing across the playground to to jab a finger in the side of the big boys already fighting, then racing off to the safety of your mothers coattails whilst declaring you are the biggest and the bravest.

You should be embarrassed, but I doubt you are that self aware.

In fact my reference to any kind of weapon carrying was directed entirely towards pointing out to RONNM that there is, to my way of thinking, a big difference in the way any person would react toward someone wielding a stick/bat in the event of a dog attack when compared to someone wielding a machete. The level of alarm and concern such an action would cause is directly correlated to the lethality of the weapon that is chosen.

In Britain, where yes to carry weapons is illegal (oh the horror of the curtailment of my rights!), to brandish a lethal weapon such as a machete would not incur anything beyond some startled looks and many calls to the local armed police unit followed by a trip to jail.

In the US, and this was the point I was trying to make, the people/ person who may witness such a move may themselves be armed. My concern was that RONNM and his little dog may unwittingly be placing themselves at greater risk. I am happy to recognise that, as yet, he has not had cause to brandish the machete.

To be clear, not once did I say that he should not be CARRYING any weapon he chooses to any location of his choosing. He seems to have a clear idea of the requirements to stay safe within his environment, and certainly has much more experience of doing so than I. I'm at a loss to understand why RONNM had this knee jerk reaction and great need for clarification against British laws and British ways of life in order to validate his own choices within his own countries laws and ways of life.

I never once questioned the need to protect yourself, your dog or your family in any circumstance. Your ways are your ways. Your dangers are your dangers. I don't need to worry about them, you do. I accept that.

My concern was that a machete had potential to do you harm, not just in its physical use against a dog attack, but from a harm coming from a source that was clearly inapparent to you, ie the perfectly law abiding, sane, intelligent, logical, dog loving, armed with a gun, American citizen walking toward you with a dog off lead that appears to be in attack mode.

Can you follow my line of thinking or is it all too foreign?

I don't wish to see harm to you or your dog, but I could see a potential for it and pointed it out. There really was no call for the negative, highly defensive reaction you gave (edited several times?). Though the irony of the misunderstanding goes some way to display that 'greyish world' that I also made reference to.

Shoot first, think later.

And to CASAFORD. You are Joealaskas best buddy. You are an intelligent man making an intelligent and heartfelt point which only a fool could try to deny makes sense. But it all comes to nowt if you slip that same old unsubstantiated – but England has got other problems to deal with crap. The use of the words 'I've read somewhere' and 'possibly the worst in the civilised world' are way beneath both your intelligence and mine. The fact that this is the second time you've come out with that line here on this blog whilst giving an otherwise valuable comment is to your shame. Perhaps you didn't see it but your claim was previously researched and refuted. I really can't be arsed to do so again, for reasons about to become obvious.

You give not one point of reference to substantiate your claims but there are gullible people who would like to take what they read as CERTAIN TRUTH, just because it suits their purpose to do so. It's the equivalent of a soothing hand on a furrowed brow or a placebo pill to the hypochondriac.

To be clear I make not one claim that England has lower than low crime levels nor that things are all just peachy. I live in the real world just the same as you.

And finally.

JOE has become a good friend to me over this last several years. On a handful of occasions we've had the need to agree to disagree but for the most part we are of like minds on a whole host of subjects and much alike in many ways, not least in our sense of humour.

I consider myself a very loyal friend to those I care about, and I have always tried to 'have his back' within the rough and tumble of this strange and wacky blog environment.

I'm sorry, so very deeply sorry, that despite him being aware of the issues I had with being personally attacked for the crime of being British he chose not only to do nothing, but he decided he might prefer to enjoy the prospect of my coming here to fight my corner once more.


I find that most disappointing.

As is my way I have given myself over 24 hours to find clarity of thought and to make a considered plan of action. This comment will be my last on this subject. As is my wont.

I simply cannot say for certain right now that it won't be my last. I'm on a break from here on in...
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21. Rotty3
2:25 AM GMT on July 17, 2014
Casa: I agree with Osdianna and Dotmon. Well articulated.
Lots of folks are pointing to Australia, but there are lots less people and lots more open spaces. That in and of itself does make for a difference.

Sadly, MamaCat didn't make it. She loved dogs too much... some of you may remember her. Her daughter is a little bit more cautious, but not that much more. So yes, fatalities do occur when cats and dogs live close together. Either short or long term. Dotmom, I think your word of caution is, as always, good motherly advice :)
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20. dotmom
11:45 PM GMT on July 16, 2014
Thanks Dix for the up close and personal experience. It can happen. That little Dutchie is such an adventurer. Joe needs to park near trees or places she can get that a dog can't get.

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19. dix608greys
11:04 PM GMT on July 16, 2014
We used to have rescued greyhounds- for years. Wonderful dogs. Cannot tell you how calm, loving, clean and quiet they are. However, we adopted one that we were told was cat and small animal safe. He wasn't and our cat found out the hard way. He cornered her in the backyard (fenced). By the time I heard the ruckus and got out there, he had her by the head and was shaking her like a ragdoll. I ran out, screaming like a banshee and he wouldn't let go. I grabbed a leaf rake and began hitting at him. Meanwhile the cat was clawing and screaming. It was an UGLY scene. Finally she broke loose and ran under the deck. Took her to the vet for stitches and if the vet had offered me a Xantax I would have taken it. It was traumatic for all of us. Sooo, just so you are aware, dogs CAN get cats and there is NOTHING pretty about the results. Keep an eye on your kitties. For them AND for you. FYI
Thanks for all the great pictures. You are in places I will never see except for through your eyes.
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18. dotmom
7:35 PM GMT on July 16, 2014
Amen there brother Casa. Good to hear from you. Lurking?
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17. osdianna
5:20 PM GMT on July 16, 2014
VERY well put, Casaford.

And now for a word about our weather out here on the has been a few days since we have even seen the sun, let alone get over 70 degrees, so if you are looking for cooler weather Joe, we are now looking at light rain coming in beginning Friday. The coast is awash in RV parks and state parks too both in Washington and Oregon....but I am sure you have already researched that.
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16. casaford
4:01 PM GMT on July 16, 2014

Pretty heavy discussion for a weather/travel blog.

Obviously a one size fits all answer doesn’t cover Americas gun and mental illness issues. I grew up in a small farm town in Ohio (Utica). We had guns at our high school almost every day. It was a small farming community and after sports or FFA we were always hunting something. To use these guns for anything but didn’t cross our mind. The main issues were being unsafe in the care and handling of a shotgun or .22 cal rifle and looking stupid in front of your friends. The “mentality” of guns is completely different in rural America then in the large metro areas where common sense is missing in terms of responsibility.

I’ll never forget an interview I watched after the Virginia Tech massacre with a young farm boy that was in that dorm. He was beside himself because he didn’t have a weapon to be able to stop the shooter and save lives. Again two different cultural mind sets. Rural folks think that city folks are crazy when it comes to guns. Once you have a society that has as many guns as we do you can only hope to manage what sometimes is a train wreck. After the Sandy Hook catastrophe if we could have drug a large magnet over the country and be relieved of all firearms I would have said yes. Again, I would have forgone my rights because of an irresponsible mother who trained and encouraged a mentally ill child to use deadly weapons. Not fair, but if my child was one of the ones massacred I would have wanted the country to be gunless.

Once you inhibit ones ability to defend person and property other issues will arise. I’ve read that home invasions, car theft and the likes in England is possibly the worst in the civilized world. Maybe it’s worth living with that problem rather than our current mess. Until we manage: #1 care of the mentally ill and #2 how we allow people to obtain firearms we will never get to a happy medium.

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15. joealaska
2:06 AM GMT on July 16, 2014
Sorry to interrupt, but I head south tomorrow for a short ride to HARPSTER, IDAHO. Booked there through the weekend...

OK, back to it.
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14. preacherskidd
1:54 AM GMT on July 16, 2014
Wow. I was going to tell about the cat killer around here a few years ago but see this has changed into guns and RIGHT TO CARRY.
Someone should tell Sue Aiken she can't carry. She got mauled and her hips crushed and dragged herself back to her cabin. And no one found her for 10 days. 50 caliber pistol is nice. Anchorage cops use 12 gauge for nuisance moose and bear. Guns are kind of handy for defending your family and in the case of 1776, your freedom also.
Davy Crockets dad and the other OVER THE MOUNTAIN MEN came over from Tennessee with their personal weapons and kicked the s... Out of the British at Kings Mountain, next door to here.
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13. Arbie
1:16 AM GMT on July 16, 2014
Boy I have all kinds of doggy memories both good and bad. Probably the grossest thing that ever happened was when a pack of feral dogs in rural Ohio where I grew up went on a couple of rampages killing sheep. They couldn't really eat them they just made a mess. 
Then there were those Amish farm dogs I always had to outrun on my bike. I'd peddle like crazy to go as fast as I could then raise my legs and coast when they got to me. Usually either someone would call them off or I'd be able to coast out of their territory. None of them would stray too far from their post. Sometimes I'd have to yank my heel out of their mouth.
Something strange that I noticed when my twins were little was that some dog owners seemed to feel like it was my tots that should stay out of their dogs' way.  They kind of acted like I should treat their dog like another child. With even more leeway really. Another child would not push in and start licking my child's face!
Ironically it seems like the dog owners that are most apologetic when their pets misbehave are the ones using leashes.
And on the other hand, dogs can be so sweet and fun.

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12. ronnm
7:04 PM GMT on July 15, 2014
To clarify a bit UK, this is all about context which it usually is in any self defense issue.

I carry a machete on remote forest trails which may not see another person on them for a single day. And the machete is concealed in a sense with only bit of a handle showing. Machetes this type especially are not uncommon with those who travel in wilderness and forest areas of the southwest. Specific to this just this year I ran into a backpacker in the wilderness who due to the complete obstruction of a trail which also rendered the trail impossible to follow, subsequent to fire and a massive blow down had to cut his way out basically, bushwhack it out by following a stream course. He was cut and bruised and believe me a machete is a very handy thing to have when in such a circumstance. Near streams which are a sure way out of a wilderness as they invariably lead to roads and people ,small brush is usually impossible to transverse without a cutting tools a ax or machete. A machete is way way easier to use. I continued on this trail until I ran into the blowdown but did not continue as it was just to difficult. But it is not uncommon for people in these wilderness areas to make arrangements for drop off in one location and pickup in another so bushwhacking may be what one has to do to get out, you just never know.

This is not the UK and in some citified or suburban area. Some carry a ax I have a machete which is specifically designed for bushwhacking. And I have never had to display the machete with a dog or person as waving the bat has always sufficed. Bears do exist in my area and while I respect all life and know how to avoid them, living with them to a extent for 30 plus years it does reassure me to know the machete is there if I did run into a bear that wanted to do me harm(bears do occasionally go crazy just as humans do and will attack for no reason, rare but it happens). And also a pack of dogs, I mention three dogs with a owner present but there is a possibility that a pack could exist in my area, peoples from the city often leave dogs in my area to dispose of them(idiots), and they can pack up if enough of them are present. Dogs in a pack can be brutal killer with seemingly no rational to their attacking and killing.

Mace as I mentioned did not work and I don't want to be tempted to shoot a dog so I don't carry a handgun while jogging though I know people who do. My acquaintances example shows what can happen if one carries a gun while jogging or mountain biking. If he had a bat I think all that could have been avoided. Dogs are not stupid and largely they will avoid a concerted opponent. Just waving the bat has always been enough but it is there for use if that did not work. I could drive away any single dog a pack maybe not. A machete and a bat and I feel safe even if a pack attacked. A bear also will run from a concerted opponent. This type bear in these areas, a grizzly certainly not. I know how to defend myself adequately enough to do that. All a mote point really as I never had to use anything waving the bat suffices. And I have lived with bears for years not having one single problem. I even last year had one bed down not 100 yards from my camp. A clean camp and knowing how to behave it never bothered me a bit.
And I spent ten years or so with a average time of one month and a half total pre season in the wilderness so I am no novice and know what is required and why.

So Uk I am not running around my suburban area with a bat and machete tied to my back. This is national forest on remote trails which is slightly used in some periods and rarely used by anyone in winter. My property borders national forest.
No one has ever commented on my pack as the bat and machete are not completely obvious to a causal person on the trail I may meet. Not concealed but not openly visible as well the tops are the only thing visible. I don't want to intimidate people as well. Taking out the bat and waving it about when a unrestrained large dog is threatening, that is purposely done to intimidate for reason, to stop harm form occurring to me the dog or my dog.

I do carry a gun for wilderness backpacking of long duration. You never know what you may meet animal or person who wants to do harm. Mountain lions rarely bother with humans but this is not out of the question in very remote areas as well. Bat or machete may not work if a mountain lion is stalking you.
I have never had to use it at all but to know it is there is reassuring.

This is well thought and not arbitrary my choices and subsequent to my environment. The US is not the UK in many respects. All cowboys who still heard cattle in Wilderness areas(like the Pecos and Gila Wilderness in New Mexico carry handguns or rifles. They have since the areas were first settled two hundred or so years ago and still do. For reason not just to show them off as city people seem to do. A gun in necessary in wilderness occasionally especially if you have to protect cattle at times.

A ran into a five foot rattler two weeks ago on one of my trails. I would not shoot such a thing as I respect life and simply went the other way when it refused to move(I threw a stick in its direction) but if I was running cattle and the cows were in danger I may have to. I do not even eat meat as it is harmful to animals but some peoples have to earn their living doing things like herding and running cattle. it is a necessity of rural life. Run cattle or don't eat there are not many jobs in some rural areas. So I can't criticize those who do nor their necessity to carry guns to protect their herds at times. The wildwest movie stories have a bit of truth to them. The guns however are to protect the cattle not to shoot other peoples with. Even coyotes which are abundant in all these areas will stalk and hunt young cattle. I have personally seem them hunt full grown deer.

So this is well thought and not arbitrary my choices and do not fit the UK scenario at all nor is this a tale to speak about gun control or lack of. I personally own guns carry them when necessary but do believe in necessary controls to keep them out of the hands of wrong peoples and in wrong places, but that is really aside the topic, which was about dogs.

My acquaintance was employed as a paramedic saving many lives in his career. He was not some bojo who shot some dogs. He was a person with a kind heart and did not love to kill. His mistake to my opinion, which caused a death, something he will have to live with for the rest of his life, was to carry a gun, not a weapon which was deadly always, to my opinion. Mace can work for some if they have the money and feel OK with it. Dogs will however not leave you be if you just take out a can of mace. You have to discharge it which hurts the dog. I find waving a bat works just fine. None are injured and so far at least none are even hit at all. The waving does the trick. But I could use it as well likely not killing anything. The machete will kill but it is a weapon of last resort. I have not even once had to pull it from its pack.

Others portrayal of the man he shot as just some loving person who was upset, is a bit off the mark. As he got into his truck and followed the biker with a rifle aimed apparently to do harm, to kill. Grief is never encompassing that. Which is why my acquaintance suffered not a single charge.
A mistake to kill the dogs in the first place to my opinion. To fire at the man, a grand jury who heard all the facts have already ruled it justified. This man was apparently intent on killing him. Thought about this is the only way a grand jury would find for no charges. They may prefer additional charges or change the initial charges if one initially charged does not fit(in New Mexico). Dogs are not people, we cannot kill people when we see them kill even our loved dogs. Getting in the truck with the rifle, driving to the spot where the shots were heard and I assume shooting, speaks of intent to do harm.
I did not serve on that grand jury but assume by reports that is how this played out, which speaks to the no charge death and killing.

So that is that and this is this. We must protect ourselves from dogs on occasion in America. In the Uk perhaps most are responsible. Here I really do believe by my personal experience some want to incite fear.

Aside the topic, but once late on a jog this on a dirt road near the forest I saw a man who saw me, purposely let loose a large black dog and did hide in the woods as I approached. I was a young buck at the time could see for miles, despite it getting dark, saw him do this and had no fear as I at that time felt I could take any dog one on one(though not now). Nothing happened but this exemplified how things are here a bit. People do do these type things here on occasion. I think some of them really do like intimidating and causing fear in those they may meet. A powerful dog is their tool for that. And these same peoples would likely have no problem what so ever with my little dog being killed by their dog. I expect they would find it satisfying. I had once my little dog taken in the jaws of a Rotweiller and thrown in the air(before I carried the bat). The owner eventually stopped the attack but only because I started to yell at the top of my lungs at him. I think he feared I would attack him. His response after this, he consoled his dogs after the attack and said no word of apology. My dog is about 1.5 foot square. A sharkapee.
Not hurt he was but that was a bit of a miracle. I did manage to call and to see to it this person had to reckon with animal control,(this occurred on a trail close to my home) but I cannot often do that in remote areas.
Regardless of how much Iove that dog I would not even consider hitting a person with a bat over a dog. This person, if the dog was hurt, I would probably have hit him, with my fist, as I have a temper and he was a little bigger than me.. But not to kill, i would probably not be able to control hitting him as he was larger, but shoot or hit a smaller person or woman never. Go pick up a gun, drive to where he was at, hunt him, shoot him, absurd I would never do such a thing. Such peoples deserve to be in jail.

As it was I just had to contact animal control. That was the well thought thing to do.
This is not plainly the UK.

Aside the topic a bit, personally I have never run into a person with a threatening dog on a trail that was also carrying a handgun openly. Since open carry is the law in NM most who do on the trails, in the woods, do so that way, openly. I would not summarily discount the possibility i would guess the people who have the vicious dogs that are unrestrained are getting their kicks in this manner with the dogs and guns are not part of it at the time. The specific with my acquaintance was the person killed, lived in the area by that dirt road and his two dogs were running loose from his house.

Most target shooting, though it is now outlawed in my area I ran into many in the past. about every one of them was cordial and polite. Gang members peoples of that sort may own vicious dogs and certainly guns but they don't target shoot I conjecture. Target shooting is a sport. Killing other dogs with your dog is in some circles a gang type thing. I have run into gang type peoples on occasion on trails(though it is very rare). Could a gang type person send his dog to attack mine and then shoot me when I defend myself? I would guess it is possible but most improbable. He may just as well shoot me and leave the dog out of it I guess. But we cannot protect for all eventualities just probable ones. I run into unsecured large dogs in one manner or another probably averaging one a month. Gang members(generally identifiable in America by certain patterns of tattoos) on trails, once in ten years, perhaps I ran into three total over the years in all places .

Just my personal experience. It seems impossible to have so many experiences but I have done this type thing for years and years and accumulate experiences as I go along. Everything is the truth to my experience as I have written it.

Rotty as you may know the rule in most places and the law in others is all must yield to a person on horseback. The yield rule in National forests is first horse, then hiker, than mountain biker, than motor bike or four wheel vehicle, in general. A person on horseback may be seriously injured if the horse is spooked by dogs or even by a hiker, which is why all must yield. Yield means I must get out of the way and a bit off the trail till it passes. Usually a knowledgeable horse rider will engage me in small talk so the horse will know this is a person and not a animal with a hugh back(backpack). That action by that person with the dogs was unconscionable. It amazes me peoples are so stupid. But in many cases as I mention I do believe this type of thing is intentional. It is almost impossible to protect on a horse. Which is why I think most real cowboys in wilderness do carry guns. You could have been killed.
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11. Rotty3
6:49 PM GMT on July 15, 2014
ronnm: sadly, I had that happen in a city owned large greenway park, except, I was out on horseback and two goldens came bounding toward the young horse I was riding. He spooked. Could have been a kid on a horse and could have gotten seriously injured. Yes, there's leash laws. I shouted at the owner, if the dogs get hurt, it's his own d**n fault. Later, same ride, dogs were off-leash again, except it was in a narrow spot and both were called back very quickly. At that point, I was ready to ride them and the I-D-10-T of owner down...

dotmon: from the other side of the animal lover, coon hater, here's a story from literally my own backyard. Can't remember if it was last year or earlier this year, but not too long ago. I came out to the chicken area (we're talking 15 sq.ft. of enclosed safe space per hen, so nothing small) and found one of my layers missing head and other body parts. The following day, another hen was killed and overnight, feed bags in my barn were ripped open, content scattered. This went on for several nights, including damage to supplement buckets (a SEALED bucket was torn open and 5 of the 10 lbs of equine supplement - costing nearly $75 - was scattered all over the floor), several feed bins and stuff being thrown around.
You can bet that coon will only return as Cujo - yes, I did ultimately trap it.

Would I advocate the treeing i.e. hunting w/ dogs? No, but in today's world, hardly anyone hunts coons anymore and their ever exploding population has moved into large swaths of long inhabited areas, doing almost as much damage as the occasional black bear. In addition to all that, coons can and often harbor rabies (though they themselves never show it, they carry it and transmit it). Do I want that around horses? Honestly, no!

Dave: there's certainly something to be said about your side of guns. However, when you live in a relatively wild part (away from lots of people), sometimes a weapon is necessary. By that I don't mean necessarily to point it at a person.

Having listened to a lot of discussion about this topic lately, I have to say there are two root causes: 1) we as a society have failed to instill respect and responsibility in the current and previous generations. Respect for human life and responsibility for one's actions. 2) mental health has been so stigmatized that no one wants to admit any issues out of fear of being ostracized. When things come to a head, you see things like you did (ninja wanna-be) or we saw in VA, CO etc.
And for the record, I own several katanas as well as sai, tonfa and kama among other things, but I also have the belts and training to go with those and understand my responsibilities. Would I use them for self-defense? You bet. Would I point them at other people "just because"? NO. Never.
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10. joealaska
4:18 PM GMT on July 15, 2014
The Dogs of War checked out of the camp next morning. They were taken on a last walk by the owners, all leashed up.
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9. DHaupt
3:03 PM GMT on July 15, 2014
Right on, UK! Write on, UK! There are a whole lot of us on this side of the pond who are sick and tired of the paranoid, "gun slinging" mentality within our nation. And, not just guns either. A few years ago we had a local nutcase who paraded through our neighborhood twice daily dressed as a ninja and carrying a Japanese sword, a katana.

I phoned the police to report him. He got stopped a day or so later and it turned out that he was mentally unstable and certainly should not have been strutting about with any formidable weapons. The guy was, in fact, delusional. But, it's easy to get that way if you watch and believe too much TV and news reportage. Sadly, ever since our ex-governor and former President, Ronald Raygun closed most of California's mental hospitals (late 60s I think it was) the local police have had to take over much of the care of the seriously mentally ill.

I sit out on my front deck and watch all the dog walkers go by in the evenings. Most I admire and say howdy to. There dogs are leashed and well behaved. But, I see a few who are evidently on some sort of power-ego trip strutting along with dogs that they couldn't physically control, many of them of known-to-be twitchy dispositions. I think a lot of these people ought to be restricted to keeping budgies.

We've only lost one cat to a dog. I've told the story before of how Pumpkin ran off a got eaten by the mentally deranged backyard neighbor's boxer. It was always a scary animal that would rush right up to you and start pawing and pushing you. It was eventually picked up and destroyed because of other mischief it got into.

We also had a next door neighbor whose brother moved in overnight from Oregon bringing two pit bulls with him that had been under court orders to be destroyed in Medford, OR. He had actually broken into the Medford animal shelter by night and sprung the two dogs; hence the quick move to sis's house.

About six months later, one of them got loose and into our fully fwnced backyard where it viciously attacked our little weenie dog, Fritz, and very nearly killed it. I saved Fritz's life by hitting the pit bull in the chest with a contractor's shovel as hard as I could swing it. The neighbor's home owner's insurance paid the $3500 vet bill. Since the incident involved a dog-on-dog attack, there was no law to get rid of the bloody thing. Fortunately, Brybry soon moved off to Texas taking the turd machines with him.

We learned the whole story about these dogs from a city animal control officer.
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8. dotmom
1:01 PM GMT on July 15, 2014
I believe everyone armed can be a big problem. Especially when "parents" are defending their pets' animalistic actions. I came from a farm family and we had multiple types of guns around as well as cats and dogs. The intent of the guns was primarily hunting - often times for food for the table. We had a couple of good hunting dogs that were a little pricey for our means, but my dad's only recreation was hunting - following the dogs at night as they tracked a coon. He didn't kill the raccoon, it was just the sport of following it. (This even sounds a little cruel to me now - dogs chasing a poor little raccoon until it ran up a tree and they were through!) For dad it was a sport. He hunted rabbits and squirrels which we often had for dinner. Cats and dogs don't mix. (NO, we didn't eat cats and dogs!) Dad kept those prize dogs in a big (30 x 30) wire cage in the yard. I can't remember exactly how it happened (at least 70 years ago) but one of those "prized" dogs bit my niece in the face as she an my nephew tried to put the cats in with the dogs. The bite was very serious - close to the eye. Big doctor's bill but fortunately no permanent damage. But before Dad even knew the extent of the damages, he took that dog to the woods and shot it.

As I write this, this all sounds so cruel, but his emotions at the time centered around his little 4-5-year old granddaughter and her welfare. I know it broke his heart to shoot his beloved dog, but when he had to make the choice, there was no choice. His granddaughter came first.

Why am I writing all this? Who knows. It just all came to mind thinking about cat and dog fights and how most dog owners think their animals are in the right - and - oh he/she won't bite! But that isn't always the case.
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7. insideuk
11:35 AM GMT on July 15, 2014
I have seen many incidents of dogs chasing cats only to find the cat can turn around and do that whole arched back, hissing thing and thus turn the chasing dog into a whimpering, terrified fool. That happened on my own staircase a year or two back, when a brave ginger cat wondered inside my house. I had thought cats knew to avoid houses with the scent of a dog around but I suppose cats that rule a house with dogs living in it lose much of that cat versus dog attitude. They know their own tactics and agilities are not matched by your average canine.

But dog fights are terrifying. I've had to deal with one or two of those and the experience stays with you for life. In my experience it is almost always big dog picking on a smaller dog, get two big dogs attacking together in a pack mentality and you've got yourself a whole heap of trubba.

And an expensive repair bill at the vets.

And countless thoughts of 'what if' swimming through your brain. Sadly sometimes the 'what ifs' become the 'what if only' because it all can end so tragically, despite brave attempts to prevent the worst happening. People, cats and dogs die.

I'd agree that dogs should be kept under control at all times. On leads, cleaned up after, kept away from babies, kept under extremely close supervision near small children, kept safely within their own home boundaries and not given an option about escaping. These are the rules that SHOULD bind all dog owners in a civilised society.

And the penalties for not following the rules should impact the dogs owner, most especially harshly if there are repeat offences. Pet ownership is a privilege, not a right.

Still, there will always be exceptions and accidents. Recently a frail elderly man suffering from dementia forgot to close a gate on a local families driveway and their dog escaped and seriously attacked a small dog being walked on a lead by its owner. It was a rescue greyhound, one that had been mistreated during its racing days. Normally it is walked on a lead and muzzled for safety. I presume it saw the small white dog as the kind of critter it was formally trained to chase around a track. The small dog survived after surgery but it, along with is owner, suffered considerable and lasting psychological trauma. The greyhound was rehoused with new owners following discussions with experts on dog behaviour and the police.

My point is there are always two sides to every story. Things are rarely black and white. Mostly we live in a greyish world of misinformation, misunderstanding and a whirlwind of human emotion.

In the case of a fellow on a bicycle who is attacked by two large dogs, he deems himself perfectly within his rights to protect himself by shooting the dogs. The owner of the dogs could perceivably view things entirely differently, if he was not close enough to witness the initial proceedings might he not assume he'd encountered a lunatic on the rampage? Even if he did witness the attack would he not be likely to suffer such extreme shock and grief so as to react with lethal retaliation? We treat our pets as one of the family. Had he just witnessed his two 'kids' being gunned down before he had any chance to intervene? I'm not saying that was how it was in this particular case. But there is always the other side of the story to muddy the waters.

Once you walk around armed with lethal weapons for 'protection' you render yourself to be at the mercy of your own disproportionate reaction.

Okay. So I'm coming at this from an entirely alien perspective to most Americans.

I accept that different views are held towards being armed in public over there. But over here in the UK you would be committing a very serious criminal offence to be walking around with a machete, hidden or otherwise. Intent to use or not. It would get you years in jail for carrying one. Same with knives. Never mind guns.

If you live in a place where people routinely arm themselves in public then surely that machete puts YOU and your own dog at more risk of being shot at by someone who could not reasonably be expected to know that your INTENT is NOT to cause anyone harm?

What the remedy to this conundrum of keeping safe in an unsafe world is, I don't have the answers.

But I do feel that if you have managed to harm yourself using a can of mace then you put yourself and your much loved pet at far greater danger when wielding a machete. However good your intentions.

Justified in thought, acquitted in action and yet dead as a result?

Only to be re-homed in casket.
Member Since: December 31, 1969 Posts: Comments:
6. osdianna
3:51 AM GMT on July 15, 2014
I like Dutchie's attitude, but hate to think of dogs ganging up on a cat. Maybe you can find a cattle prod to keep close by...or a can of bear spray...use it on the humans. Fluff shouldn't have to worry about being harassed when she's just hanging out in her own territory...dogs in parks need to be on leashes until they get out where they're no longer a problem. Silly twits!
Member Since: December 31, 1969 Posts: Comments:
5. joealaska
3:32 AM GMT on July 15, 2014
Unfortunately I agree with most of that, RONNM. I believe what you said. I appreciate the comment.

Member Since: December 31, 1969 Posts: Comments:
4. ronnm
11:47 PM GMT on July 14, 2014
I own a small dog and go jogging with it. I have had many encounters with other peoples with unrestrained and uncontrolled dogs. My small dog small that he is, will bit when a bigger dog gets to close. A dog fight is sure then to ensue. So I have always advised peoples to keep their dogs secure when I meet them on a trail. But it seemingly had no effect. One even said one time, what are you going to do call a cop, this on a remote trail in the forest.

So at one event I had occasion to be cornered by three large dogs, me and my little dog and decided I had had enough. I picked up a large branch and started swinging, not to hit the dogs but to scare them away. Their owner suddenly appeared and called them back and went another way. I strongly suspect he had had to be close enough to know what was going on before I picked up the stick. So quick did he call them back.

So lesson a bit learned I came to next carry a small bat and a small machete, in a backpack I fitted for this purpose. I have no intention to harm any dog but the taking out of the bat when a unrestrained dog is near and acting aggressive has the effect of the owner immediately calling it back. Prior with no chance of harm to their dog they would never ever do this. And no amount of reasoning would cause them to do that as well. Seeing a weapon that could harm their dog it is almost instantaneous their reaction invariably being to immediately call back their dog. Prior that would almost never happen.

A strange testament to human nature in these dark days. It takes a threat of harm to their dog for them to follow the law and not have them harass other dogs and peoples.
A strange sad tale, a acquaintance of mine was a survivalist type, a great hunter, crack shot accomplished bow hunter and mountain biker to boot.
He had occasion to have two large dogs attack him when he was on his bike, this in a rural New Mexico dirt road. He being always armed(NM permits open carry)_ shot the two dogs to protect himself. The owner quite unfortunately heard this happening got his rifle and decided to equal the score. He plainly knew not who he was up against. Two shots and yes the owner of the dogs, he was quite dead as well. Grand Jury and all that my acquaintance was quite vindicated, lost a lot of money in associated legal fees but was quite innocent and no charges ended up being filed. No civil suit was tried to my knowledge.

Seems as if a made up story but this really did happen in New Mexico about ten or so years ago now, to someone I have acquaintance with.

I would not want to follow his example and carry a gun while jogging though I do for bears when wilderness camping, but do think considering how peoples are nowadays (they apparently value their dogs life more than any human) carrying a weapon for self protection a bat or knife is well advised. I tried bear mace once but ended up macing myself accidentally, so gave up on that. It is also 50 dollars a pop per canister. Reusing is difficult once it is even once discharged.

Sad peoples are as they are nowadays. i have lived next to the national forest, and jogged and hiked in it for years and years and really peoples acting this way is a relatively recent invention about five or so years ago it started. Not a one in the last five years have ever apologized for even the dog fights which have ensued due to their unrestrained dogs, not to mention the barking growling and cornering that occurred.

Really I have never had to actually use the bat or machete. Just swinging it once over my head does the trick for owner and dog. My dog it is always secured. I have a special leach that surrounds my waist and is spongy so I may jog with it, without harming it.
I don't mind others if they are not on a leach but at the very least they must call them back when they are harassing others. The owners sad as it is, I think they enjoy a bit the fear they anticipate their dog is causing.
How sad.

Funny thing in the city nearby animal control is strictly enforced. Never does one ever see any dogs unrestrained or threatening to others. Shows how Americans true nature is when not in fear of the law, quite deficient to my opinion. Thank anyone who could be thanked for the law and those to enforce it. Without them people would make life quite miserable.
I hate having to jog with a bat and machete, but I must to protect myself and my little dog.
So sad things are this way nowadays.
Member Since: December 31, 1969 Posts: Comments:
3. miyuki
10:43 PM GMT on July 14, 2014
Whew !!!! I bit 2 fingernails off while reading that!
I'm with DotMom on this one, only have more than 'just one'!
Member Since: December 31, 1969 Posts: Comments:
2. dotmom
7:08 PM GMT on July 14, 2014
What a nightmare! And scary too. If one of those dogs could have caught Dutchie, she might have been dog food. One dog is one thing, but a "pack" albeit small -- they act differently. Just like teenage boys. They do things in a group they would never do alone.

I think the woman could have at least talked to you about the incident. But maybe best there was no talk - could have turned ugly. But, her dog came right on and into your property - that seems like a problem. The leash law probably puts them all on leashes. Glad it all turned out all right. The dogs are probably non-confrontational as a rule - but get a person between them and their prey - hey, they are animals.

Phew! Put those cats in the RV and sit down and have a cool one!
Member Since: December 31, 1969 Posts: Comments:
1. Rotty3
6:30 PM GMT on July 14, 2014
Thankfully, the felines are a-okay from the way it sounds.
Let's just say it this way, some felines ain't so lucky....

Hope everyone had a great 4th of July (if you celebrated it) and enjoys the ummm... dog days of summer!

(yes, I'm coming up for air for a minute. Even with having finished school--yes, again--I still amaze myself at how little time I seem to have. Alas, it's still fun :D).
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I have just taken a new job in Great Falls, Montana. A new state and new areas to explore.

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