cyclonebuster's WunderBlog

Tunnels Way Ahead Of Their Time

By: cyclonebuster, 1:49 AM GMT on November 01, 2006

Astonishing the "TUNNELS" seem to be way ahead of their time! How can "WE"
change that??

----- Original Message -----
From: "Frank Marks" Frank.Marks@noaa.gov
To: "Stackgenerator" stackgenerator@cableone.net
Sent: Monday, October 30, 2006 2:19 PM
Subject: Re: TUNNEL IDEA??


> Unfortunately there is a dearth of models capable of testing such a
> hypothesis. The operational models are coupled to the ocean in a 1-D
> sense eliminating any advection in the ocean. Research models are coming
> along that could be used to look at 3-D interactions, but they are so
> new I am not sure that you could be sure the results was caused by the
> changes you induce or by other issues the new models have not been
> tested for yet. The big challenge is the ocean modeling (there are some
> good research ocean models, but the issue of forcing in a hurricane
> environment is not completely understood yet - spray, wave breaking,
> etc), and then the coupling of it to the atmosphere to get the
> appropriate feedback. We are working on that for the next generation
> operational models, but it still a work in progress. I think in a few
> years we may have such a tool ready to test your idea in a credible
> manner.

Updated: 3:09 AM GMT on November 02, 2006

Permalink

Slowly the tide is turning for the "TUNNELS".

By: cyclonebuster, 10:08 PM GMT on October 30, 2006

cyclonebuster at 9:49 PM GMT on October 30, 2006.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Frank Marks" Frank.Marks@noaa.gov
To: "Stackgenerator" stackgenerator@cableone.net
Sent: Monday, October 30, 2006 8:49 AM
Subject: Re: TUNNEL IDEA??


>I see no change. I still think any idea to modify the environment needs
> to be tested in models and verified before any proof of concept can be
> built.
>
> Stackgenerator wrote:
>> Frank,
>>
>> What do you think of the Tunnel idea has the tide changed yet for
>> them?? Globally temps. are still on the rise.
Pat McNulty

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Modification Mission Statement!!

By: cyclonebuster, 7:35 AM GMT on October 30, 2006

Notice in the mission statement they failed to mention my "TUNNELS"!!

Why? Because they are afraid to say the "Tunnels" work and the "Tunnels" would put the oil companies out of business!! It's all about the "O" Oilstock.com..

They also know I'll prove them wrong if they say the "Tunnels" don't work!!



OUR MISSION
Contents: Impacts Aircraft Motion Dynamics Modification? Costs & Benefits

Hurricane Modification?
Can human intervention diminish the force of a hurricane? From the mid-1960s through the early 1980s NOAA actively pursued Project STORMFURY, a program of experimental hurricane modification. The general strategy was to reduce the intensity of the storm by cloud seeding. The seeding, it was argued, would stimulate the formation of a new eyewall that would surround the existing eyewall. The new eyewall would contract, strangling the old eyewall and reducing the intensity of the hurricane. However, research carried out at AOML showed clearly that these "concentric eyewalls" happened often in unmodified hurricanes, thus casting doubt on the seemingly positive results of seeding in earlier experimentation. Hurricane Luis provides an example of this behavior. Moreover, observations showed that hurricanes contain little of the supercooled water necessary for cloud seeding to work.

The American Meteorological Society policy statement on planned and inadvertent weather modification, dated October 2, 1998, indicates, "There is no sound physical hypothesis for the modification of hurricanes, tornadoes, or damaging winds in general, and no related scientific experimentation has been conducted in the past 20 years." In the absence of a sound hypothesis, no Federal agencies are presently doing, or planning, research on hurricane modification.

Some techniques besides seeding clouds that have been considered over the years include: cooling the ocean with cryogenic material or icebergs, retardation of surface evaporation with monomolecular films, changing the radiational balance in the hurricane environment by absorption of sunlight with carbon black, blowing the hurricane apart with hydrogen bombs, injecting air into the center with a huge maneuverable tube to raise the central pressure, and blowing the storm away from land with windmills. As carefully reasoned as some of these suggestions are, they all fall short of the mark because they fail to appreciate the size and power of tropical cyclones. For example, when hurricane Andrew struck South Florida in 1992, the eye and eyewall devastated a swath 20 miles wide. The heat energy released around the eye was 5,000 times the combined heat and electrical power generation of the Turkey Point nuclear power plant over which the eye passed. Better building codes, wiser land use, and more accurate forecasts seem prosaic compared with environmental mega engineering but they are a great deal cheaper and have overwhelmingly favorable cost-benefit ratios.



Updated: 9:52 PM GMT on October 30, 2006

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New Tunnel Blog

By: cyclonebuster, 12:59 AM GMT on October 23, 2006


From: Kerry Emanuel [mailto:@texmex.mit.edu]
Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2005 6:26 AM
To: Pat McNulty
Subject: RE: Pascal's and Bernoulli's principle weakens hurricanes

Pat: I have not had time to run calculations on your idea, but I do
not see an obvious reason why it might not work. The technical issue
would be with the volume of water required. Since you are effectively
mixing heat in ocean columns, you would be warming water at depth in
proportion to the surface cooling, and one should explore the
consequences of this.


As you may imagine, this past season's storms have renewed interest
in hurricane modification and quite a few proposals are being
fielded. I am working with some other faculty at MIT to initiate a
funding program for such proposals as yours; if we succeed I will let
you know and there would then be a mechanism for you to get funding
to work on this.

Yours, Kerry


At 01:36 PM 12/13/2005, you wrote:
>Kerry,
> This idea of mine keeps coming back to you. What do you suggest I do?
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Phil Klotzbach [mailto:philk@atmos.colostate.edu]
>Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2005 8:18 AM
>To: Pat McNulty
>Subject: Re: Pascal's and Bernoulli's principle weakens hurricanes
>
>Dear Pat,
>
>I would suggest contacting Kerry Emanuel at MIT:
>
>@texmex.mit.edu
>
>He is a brilliant dynamicist. If he cannot help you, he can probably point
>you in the right direction.
>
>Phil
>
>----------------------------------------------------
>Phil Klotzbach
>Research Associate
>Department of Atmospheric Science
>Colorado State University
>philk@atmos.colostate.edu
>Phone: (970) 491-8605
>-----------------------------------------------------
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Pat McNulty"
>To: "'Phil Klotzbach'"
>Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2005 11:03 AM
>Subject: RE: Pascal's and Bernoulli's principle weakens hurricanes
>
>
> > Who might those persons be?
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Phil Klotzbach [mailto:philk@atmos.colostate.edu]
> > Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2005 8:00 AM
> > To: Pat McNulty
> > Subject: Re: Pascal's and Bernoulli's principle weakens hurricanes
> >
> > Dear Pat,
> >
> > A couple of points:
> >
> > 1) When you submit a paper to a scientific journal, you don't cite
> > personal
> > references
> >
> > 2) I don't think I'm really the right person for you to be talking with,
> > since if you want constructive feedback, you should talk to someone who
> > has
> > a better dynamical view of hurricane genesis and intensification than I
> > do.
> > I mostly work with statistical prediction of tropical cyclones.
> >
> > Good luck with your idea.
> >
> > Phil
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------
> > Phil Klotzbach
> > Research Associate
> > Department of Atmospheric Science
> > Colorado State University
> > philk@atmos.colostate.edu
> > Phone: (970) 491-8605
> > -----------------------------------------------------
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Pat McNulty"
> > To: "'Phil Klotzbach'"
> > Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2005 10:01 AM
> > Subject: RE: Pascal's and Bernoulli's principle weakens hurricanes
> >
> >
> >> Would you like to see results of computer modeling of the idea?
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Phil Klotzbach [mailto:philk@atmos.colostate.edu]
> >> Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2005 6:22 AM
> >> To: Pat McNulty
> >> Subject: Re: Pascal's and Bernoulli's principle weakens hurricanes
> >>
> >> If you write up your idea and explain physically why it should work, they
> >> may publish it. We've had some papers rejected from both Science and
> >> Nature
> >>
> >> before, so it's no slam-dunk. But, if you want to see your idea go
> >> forward,
> >>
> >> it's worth a shot. That's about all the advice I have.
> >>
> >> Phil
> >>
> >> ----------------------------------------------------
> >> Phil Klotzbach
> >> Research Associate
> >> Department of Atmospheric Science
> >> Colorado State University
> >> philk@atmos.colostate.edu
> >> Phone: (970) 491-8605
> >> -----------------------------------------------------
> >>
> >>
> >
> >

______________________________________________

Kerry A. Emanuel Professor of Meteorology
Rm. 54-1620, MIT Phone: (617) 253-2462
77 Mass. Ave. Fax: (617) 324-0308
Cambridge, MA 02139 Email:
@texmex.mit.edu
Web:
http://wind.mit.edu/~emanuel/home.html


From: Michael Oppenheimer [mailtomichael@Princeton.EDU]
Sent: Saturday, November 12, 2005 4:40 AM
To: Pat McNulty
Subject: RE: Bernoulli's equation used to modify hurricanes and tornados's



Sounds plausible. Questions I would ask include the cost of construction, cost of maintaining the system, side effects to the local marine environment. Whether it actually would work ought to be tested with some modeling. You could contact Kerry Emanuel at MIT to see what he thinks of the possibility of modeling it to see if it actually works as envisioned.




---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----

From: Pat McNulty [mailto:stackgenerator@cableone.net]
Sent: Saturday, November 12, 2005 1:19 AM
To: 'Michael Oppenheimer'
Subject: RE: Bernoulli's equation used to modify hurricanes and tornados's



Here is how it will work. Anchor a large tunnel to the sea floor like a buoy but in several locations around the tunnel to hold it fast to the sea bed.
Position it to where one open end opposes the current at depth where the cool water is and the other open end at the surface faces away from the current. What happens is a difference in pressure is created at both ends and when a pressure difference is created flow occurs. That is the beauty of Bernoulli's principle. Cool water is bought up from below thus mixing with the warm water at the surface. The tunnel is neutrally buoyant with the top end just under the surface. Remember it can only work where there is a current. No current, no difference in pressure. Also, enough electricity can be generated for millions of people in Florida.

With the use of both of these principles combined no pumps are needed since the water will flow up the tunnel naturally. They can also be placed in the Yucatan and Caribbean currents thus cooling the Gulf of Mexico via the loop current thus saving the Gulf States, if placed SW of Key West They will save the whole East coast Of North America. The SSTs can be regulated to 70 to 80 degrees by the addition of a gate on the discharge end of the tunnel that regulates the flow of cool water flowing from them.

The idea does not eliminate the hurricanes it modifies them to a much weaker state no more than a catagory one by regulating the SSTs. The transfer of heat to the mid latitudes still occurs. The ocean temperature is regulated between 70 and 75 degrees and therefore as the storm crosses the cooler water it just weakens but it is not eliminated. BTW during the winter the temperature of the gulf is below 70 degrees so this should not harm sea life.
tornado's may not even form in the mid west because of the cooler temperatures in the Gulf thus cooling the warm air migrating to the North out of the Gulf Of Mexico. Since the air is cooler not as much lift is created in the atmosphere for tornados to form.

Pascal's principle:
F1 is the force of the gulf stream exerts on the mouth of the tunnel at depth.

http://www.scientia.org/cadonline/P...uids/pascal.ASP

Bernoulli's principle:
A negative pressure is created when the gulf stream rushs pass the exit of the tunnel near the surface.

http://theory.uwinnipeg.ca/mod_tech/node68.html

All I did was combine both principles together to make the thing work with the tunnel. Any thoughts?



Thanks,

Pat McNulty






---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----

From: Michael Oppenheimer [mailtomichael@Princeton.EDU]
Sent: Friday, October 28, 2005 12:52 PM
To: Pat McNulty
Subject: RE: Bernoulli's equation used to modify hurricanes and tornados's



Interesting idea. Let me think about it some more. Generally, I'm skeptical of geo-engineering but maybe you've got something here.




---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----

From: Pat McNulty [mailto:stackgenerator@cableone.net]
Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2005 7:56 PM
To: omichael@Princeton.EDU
Subject: Bernoulli's equation used to modify hurricanes and tornados's



Michael,

I have two neat ideas to modify hurricanes that will work physically. Bernoulli's Principle and underwater tunnels can weaken hurricanes just as the principle works on an airplanes wing creating lift. It works for fluids and gasses. They can create upwelling in the path of a storm thus weaken it. They can only work where a current exists such as the Gulf stream current or the Caribbean and Yucatan currents. The current that runs through the tunnels can be turned on or off and can restore proper temperatures to the oceans sea surface temperatures thus regulating them.

If placed in the proper locations these tunnels would reduce a hurricane or tornado's impact. It may even prevent a tornado from forming at all. These tunnels by product can produce enough electricity for the world without warming the planet. Wow imagine the effects when a billion more people buy cars and get electricity in just 15 years in China. Any thoughts??

This next email is from Hugh Willoughby.

http://www.ihc.fiu.edu/people/bios/willoughby.htm

As I wrote earlier, the loop current is hundreds of kilometers across and its position varies greatly from year to year. What makes the scoops not completely nuts as a proposal is the narrowness and fixed position of the Gulf Stream in the Straits and off Florida's SE coast. In terms of climatology, Greater Miami is the most vulnerable major city in the US. Only Miami has the configuration of a deep "western boundary" current directly offshore. Thus this scheme, if it proves feasible, would work only for Miami and only for Andrew-like storms. The city would remain vulnerable to late season storms, which approach from the SW, like WILMA

hew

From: "Pat McNulty"
Date: 2005/10/23 Sun AM 12:15:36 EDT
To:
Subject: RE: Scoops( Under water Tunnels) Isn't there
also a loop current in the central gulf? If so it may prevent one from
becoming organized and prevent rapid development thus the impact would
be less at landfall. Hopefully, ssts have been cooled by the other
storms this year. However, any big city that can be protected should be
protected if such technology exists. It is just going to get worse if
we just sit on our hands. I predict storms getting much worse than
they are now.


From: willough@fiu.edu [mailto:willough@fiu.edu]
Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2005 6:13 PM
To: Pat McNulty
Subject: Re: Scoops( Under water Tunnels)
Hugh,
I bet those tunnels are cost effective now???? ANY THOUGHTS?
Pat McNulty

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MargieKieper Bans Me For My "TUNNEL" Question??

By: cyclonebuster, 12:55 AM GMT on October 18, 2006

Why?? It was a simple question.

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Weather modification by use of "Underwater Suspension Tunnels".

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