Dr. Ricky Rood's Climate Change Blog

Validation and the Scientific Organization: Organizing U.S. Climate Modeling (4)
Posted by: Dr. Ricky Rood, 4:51 AM GMT on July 04, 2011 +6
Validation and the Scientific Organization: Organizing U.S. Climate Modeling (4)

This entry is the last I will be writing about organizing U.S. climate modeling, software, and open source communities – for a while. At the end of this entry are links to the blogs/articles in a couple of series. I am going to start by quoting a comment from atmoaggie on the previous entry.

“The difference between all of those (rbr: types of models in a previous comment) and climate models is the ability to study their validity.

I would like to see a climate modeling 10 year forecast of some parameters, such as, maybe, average SST for the month of June 2021. Too specific? How about average global SST for JJA (summer) 2021. Still too specific? Maybe the average global SST for the next 10 years.

I, too, work in modeling. In storm surge modeling, one can very easily tune a model to better match the results for one storm (by adjusting air-sea drag, e.g.) only to find that the model is not useful for forecasting as another parameter or physical calculation is incorrect (the sea floor friction formulation, e.g.)

I bring this up to illustrate what can go wrong when modeling a hindcast, tuning to match observations, and applying that model to forecasts. And climate is far more complex, I think, than tides and TC wind and pressure-forced storm surges.”

I want to bring together two streams of thought that I have pursued over the past few months – validation and the scientific organization. First, I will discuss whether or not climate models can be validated and then argue that the development of a validation plan is at the center of developing a scientific organization.

Validation: As suggested in some of my earlier entries the question about whether or not climate models can be validated is a controversial issue. The controversy lies, first, in philosophy. The formal discussion of whether or not climate models can or cannot be validated often starts with a greatly cited paper by Naomi Oreskes et al. entitled Verification, Validation, and Confirmation of Numerical Models in the Earth Sciences. In fact quoting the first two sentences in the abstract:

“Verification and validation of numerical models of natural systems is impossible. This is because natural systems are never closed and because model results are always nonunique.”

Oreskes et al. argues that the performance of the models can be “confirmed” by comparison with observations. However, if the metric of “validation” is a measure of absolute truth, then such absolute validation is not possible. By such a definition little of the science of complex systems, which would include most biological science, medical science, and nuclear weapons management, can stand up to formal validation.

I will return to the stream I started with the quote from atmoaggie, which makes reference to storm surge model (see here for excellent discussion of storm surges Resio and Westerink). The point of the comment is that the storm surge model can be tuned and thereby calibrated based on observations of past storm surges and theory, but the model may still fail in future predictions of storm surges. This points out a weakness in the development of models of natural systems, that the adjustments of the models to represent a historical situation does not assure that model correctly represents the physics of cause and effect. In fact, this is a general problem with modeling of complex natural systems, if you get the answer “right,” then that does not mean you get it right for the right reason. Hence, in the spirit of Oreskes et al. validation is not possible – there is no absolute to be had.

Yet, aren’t storm surge models useful and usable? The same situation is true for weather models and river forecast models, their correctness cannot be assured in any absolute sense, but aren’t they useful and usable? Atmoaggie poses a set of predictions, all of which are reasonable propositions, that may or may not be convincing to him or her. These do not represent a complete set of metrics to evaluate models, and the success or failure of these predictions does not state in any absolute sense whether or not the models have usable information. There are many more elements of model evaluation that determine our level of confidence in the use of models.

It is easy, therefore, to establish that models that cannot be formally validated can be both useful and usable. The results of these models might not be certain, but the degree of confidence that can be attributed to their calculations is very high. This confidence is, in general, established by many forms of model evaluation and additional sources of relevant information, most importantly, observations and basic physical principles.

Validation, verification, evaluation, certification, confirmation, calibration: All of the words in this list have been used in discussions of how to assess the quality of models. For some, there are nuanced differences between the words, but in the general discussion they are all likely to take on the same meaning – some quantitative measure of model quality. The word “validation;” however, is special. Within political or philosophical arguments, the statement “models cannot be validated,” carries a powerful message, especially if one establishes as a principle that the elimination or the reduction of uncertainty is required prior to taking action (see Shearer and Rood). Many scientists take on the mantra that climate models cannot be validated. When I worked at NASA, the culture was that measurements of temperature (for example) could be validated, but that models could not. But if one is talking about temperatures from satellites over a deep layer of the atmosphere, in the spirit of Oreskes et al., can satellite temperature measurements be validated? We can state with stunning confidence that the satellite temperatures are within a certain closeness of a more intuitive or accepted measure of temperature – like a thermometer on a balloon. This is, to me, more calibration than validation, but in my world at NASA, calibration was done in a lab with standards (and that is why we have NIST). At NASA we talked about models being “evaluated.”

Other arguments I have heard about climate modes defying validation are based on to what do we chose to validate against – what is our standard? Suppose that you are interested in how well the model represents the Pacific Ocean, and I am interested in how well it represents the Arctic Ocean. And the scientist down the hall wants to know how well it represents the ice-age cycles, and another wants to know how well it represents the 20th century temperature variability. There is no absolute way to make these choices. More fundamentally, if it is a climate model then how do we measure “climate?”

The list goes on – I have frequently heard arguments of one community making critical remarks about the “science” of other communities. The weather forecast community relies strongly on forecast skill scores, but these measures are by no means unique and for a variety of reasons often only indirectly relevant to the quality of climate models. There is no fundamental reason that an excellent climate model would automatically be an excellent weather forecasting model. The opposite is true as well. Over the years of my career there have been criticisms of climate science by other fields of physics. The gist of their arguments is that they don’t validate models the same way we do, and since we do a good job, they don’t. These arguments make great fuel for political argument and the maintenance of doubt. (Here is an interesting article by Oreskes and Renouf.)

Validation is, therefore, both controversial and important. I pose that validation is at the center of the development of the scientific organization.

Validation and the Scientific Organization: The definition I have posed for the scientific organization is an organization that as a whole functions according to the scientific method. Therefore, if it is a climate modeling organization the model development path, the modeling problems that are being addressed, are determined in a unified way. In that determination, it is required that ways to measure success be identified. This leads to a strategy of evaluation that is determined prior to the development and implementation of model software. With the existence of an evaluation strategy, a group of scientists who are independent of the developers can be formed to serve as the evaluation team.

The development of an evaluation plan requires that a fundamental question be asked? What is the purpose of the model development? What is the application? If the model is being developed to do “science,” then there is no real constraint that balances the interests of one scientific problem versus another. There is little or no way to set up a ladder of priorities.

Again, I will emphasize that to achieve this, and it can be achieved, is a matter of governance and management. It is a process of developing organizational rather than individual goals. It is a myth to imagine that if a group of individuals are each making the “best” scientific decisions, the accumulation of their activities will be the best integrated science. Science and scientists are not immune to the The Tragedy of the Commons. If one wants to achieve scientifically robust results from a unified body of knowledge, then one needs to manage the components of that body of knowledge so that as a whole the scientific method is honored. Enough on that pulpit.

Back to evaluation and validation – Minimally, the arguments about the nuanced meaning of validation and evaluation are a subject about which the climate modeling community needs to develop a standard. By my interpretation, the evaluation of climate models can be structured and quantified as “validation.”

When I was at NASA I had a programmatic requirement to develop a validation plan. And, yes, my friends and colleagues would tell me that that validation was “impossible.” But I am stubborn, and not so smart, so I persisted and still persist with the notion. That old plan can still be found here in Algorithm Theoretical Basis Document for Goddard Earth Observing System Data Assimilation System (GEOS DAS) with a Focus on Version 2.

The software we produced was an amalgam of weather forecasting and climate modeling. For the validation plan the strategy was taken to define a quantitative baseline of model performance for a set of geophysical phenomena. These phenomena were broadly studied and simulated well enough that they described a credibility threshold for system performance. They were chosen to represent the climate system. Important aspects of this validation approach were that it is defined by a specific suite of phenomena, formally separated validation from development, and relied on both quantitative and qualitative analysis.

The validation plan separated "scientific" validation from "systems" validation. It included steps of routine point-by-point monitoring of simulation and observations, formal measures of quality assessment by measure of fit of simulations and observations, and calculation of skill scores to a set of "established forecasts." There was a melding of methodologies of practices of the study of weather and the study of climate. We distinguished the attributes of the scientific validation from the systems validation. The systems validation, focused on the credibility threshold described above, used simulations that were of longer time scales than the established forecasts and brought attention to a wider range of variables important to climate. The scientific validation was a more open-ended process, often requiring novel scientific investigation of new problems. The modeling software system was released for scientific validation and use after a successful systems validation.

The end result of this process was the quantitative description of the modeling system against a standard set of measures over the course of one modeling release to the next. Did it meet the criterion of the absolute validation? No. Did it provide a defensible quantitative foundation for scientific software and its application? Yes.

All told, it does little to base a body of scientific knowledge on the premise that validation is “impossible.” Rather than following such a premise, which immediately devalues the knowledge base, it is more useful to develop a systematic approach to robust, appropriate validation. This stands to represent the complexity of the Earth’s climate and its investigation that serves not only the scientific method, but the communication of that science to other scientists, and to those with a stake in those scientific results. It sets a standard.

r


Open Climate Modeling:

Greening of the Desert

Stickiness and Climate Models

Open Source Communities, What are the Problems?

A Culture of Checking


Organizing U.S. Climate Modeling:

Something New in the Past Decade?

The Scientific Organization

A Science-Organized Community

Validation and the Scientific Organization
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301. JBastardi 9:25 PM GMT on July 08, 2011    
Quoting cyclonebuster:


Who is they NOAA/NASA? If not then you better comprehend these charts from them. EVEN THE PAST DECADE shows the warming.



http://www1.ncdc.noaa.gov/pub/data/cmb/images/ind icators/global-temp-and-co2-1880-2009-300.gif


I wouldn't trust anything from UEA, NOAA, NASA or the like. I'm really sick of seeing that completely fraudulent "hockey schtick" graph. Everyone knows it's wrong yet people keep using it as a reference. Even though every model the warmists produced has been proven to be wrong, they keep hyping them. Even if CO2 were at double the concentration it is now, no harm would befall the planet. In fact, it would probably help crop growth considering we are about to enter another ice age.
Member Since: July 5, 2011 Posts: 0 Comments: 403
302. cyclonebuster 9:28 PM GMT on July 08, 2011    
Quoting JBastardi:


I wouldn't trust anything from UEA, NOAA, NASA or the like. I'm really sick of seeing that completely fraudulent "hockey schtick" graph. Everyone knows it's wrong yet people keep using it as a reference.


Refuseniks commonly trash our government. Are you one of them?
Member Since: January 2, 2006 Posts: 127 Comments: 18774
303. JBastardi 9:29 PM GMT on July 08, 2011    
Quoting cyclonebuster:


Refuseniks commonly trash our government. Are you one of them?


I trash lies and incompetent science benefiting the elite. I don't trust government. I spent part of my younger life serving this country. Have you?
Member Since: July 5, 2011 Posts: 0 Comments: 403
304. cyclonebuster 9:30 PM GMT on July 08, 2011    
Quoting JBastardi:


I trash lies and incompetent science for the benefit of a few. I spent part of my life serving this country. Have you?




I work for the Army now.
How many chemical weapons have you disposed of in your life time?
Member Since: January 2, 2006 Posts: 127 Comments: 18774
305. NRAamy 9:33 PM GMT on July 08, 2011    
Refuseniks commonly trash our government.



Aw come on, that's not fair! We ALL trash the government!

:)
Member Since: January 24, 2007 Posts: 315 Comments: 31937
306. cyclonebuster 9:36 PM GMT on July 08, 2011    
Quoting NRAamy:
Refuseniks commonly trash our government.



Aw come on, that's not fair! We ALL trash the government!

:)


Really now!
Member Since: January 2, 2006 Posts: 127 Comments: 18774
307. JBastardi 9:36 PM GMT on July 08, 2011    
Quoting cyclonebuster:




I work for the Army now.
How many chemical weapons have you disposed of in your life time?


Ain't Ready for Marines Yet. What do chemical weapons have to do with trashing the government? You work for the Army or you're in the Army? I don't think there is a plethora of chemical weapons here in the states.
Member Since: July 5, 2011 Posts: 0 Comments: 403
308. cyclonebuster 9:38 PM GMT on July 08, 2011    
Quoting JBastardi:


Ain't Ready for Marines Yet. What do chemical weapons have to do with trashing the government?


You asked question. I answered it.
Member Since: January 2, 2006 Posts: 127 Comments: 18774
309. NRAamy 9:38 PM GMT on July 08, 2011    
cb, I SUPPORT the armed services....

that's different.....

:)
Member Since: January 24, 2007 Posts: 315 Comments: 31937
310. cyclonebuster 9:40 PM GMT on July 08, 2011    
Quoting JBastardi:


Ain't Ready for Marines Yet. What do chemical weapons have to do with trashing the government? You work for the Army or you're in the Army? I don't think there is a plethora of chemical weapons here in the states.


You correct. We thermally disposed most of the old ones.The new ones are a different story.
Member Since: January 2, 2006 Posts: 127 Comments: 18774
311. JBastardi 9:44 PM GMT on July 08, 2011    
Nothing changes the fact that no warming has occurred in the past ten years even with climatic events that should have increased temperatures.

Link
Member Since: July 5, 2011 Posts: 0 Comments: 403
312. cyclonebuster 9:46 PM GMT on July 08, 2011    
Quoting JBastardi:
Nothing changes the fact that no warming has occurred in the past ten years even with climatic events should have increased temperatures.

Link


Evidently you can not read the charts I posted from NOAA about how much it has warmed in the upper GLOBAL layers of the oceans and the atmosphere. COMPRENDE?
Member Since: January 2, 2006 Posts: 127 Comments: 18774
313. cyclonebuster 9:49 PM GMT on July 08, 2011    
Got to go work for the Army tonight. See you all you refuseniks later. LOL!
Member Since: January 2, 2006 Posts: 127 Comments: 18774
314. JBastardi 9:49 PM GMT on July 08, 2011    
Quoting cyclonebuster:


Evidently you can not read the charts I posted from NOAA about how much it has warmed in the upper layers of the oceans and the atmosphere. COMPRENDE?


Evidently many scientists disagree with you. Even some from NOAA are beginning to doubt the veracity of the surface temperature stations.

Global Warming Standstill Confirmed - But How Long Will It Last?
Monday, 04 July 2011 19:10 Dr. David Whitehouse
It is good news that the authors of the PNAS paper Reconciling anthropogenic climate change with observed temperature 1998 %u2013 2008 (Kaufmann et al. 2011) recognise that there has been no global temperature increase since 1998. Even after the standstill appears time and again in peer-reviewed scientific studies, many commentators still deny its reality. We live in the warmest decade since thermometer records began about 150 years ago, but it hasn%u2019t gotten any warmer for at least a decade.

The researchers tweak an out-of-date climate computer model and cherry-pick the outcome to get their desired result. They do not use the latest data on the sun%u2019s influence on the Earth, rendering their results of academic interest only.

They blame China%u2019s increasing coal consumption that they say is adding particles into the atmosphere that reflect sunlight and therefore cool the planet. The effect of aerosols and their interplay with other agents of combustion is a major uncertainty in climate models. Moreover, despite China%u2019s coal burning, data indicate that in the past decade the amount of aerosols in the atmosphere has not increased.

The researchers seek to explain the temperature standstill between 1998 and 2008. They say that the global temperature has increased since then.

This is misleading. There was an El Nino in 2010 (natural cyclic warming) but even that did not raise temperatures above 1998. In fact the standstill has continued to 2010 and 2011 appears to be on course to be a cooler year than any of the preceding ten years.

Tweaking computer models like this proves nothing. The real test is in the real world data. The temperature hasn%u2019t increased for over a decade. For there to be any faith in the underlying scientific assumptions the world has to start warming soon, at an enhanced rate to compensate for it being held back for a decade.

Despite what the authors of this paper state after their tinkering with an out-of-date climate computer model, there is as yet no convincing explanation for the global temperature standstill of the past decade.

Either man-made and natural climatic effects have conspired to completely offset the warming that should have occurred due to greenhouse gasses in the past decade, or our estimation of the %u2018climate sensitivity%u2019 to greenhouse gasses is too large.

This is not an extreme or %u2018sceptic%u2019 position but represents part of the diversity of scientific opinion presented to the IPCC that is seldom reported.

e-mail: david.whitehouse@thegwpf.org
Member Since: July 5, 2011 Posts: 0 Comments: 403
315. nymore 9:57 PM GMT on July 08, 2011    
Neapolitan-I was reading your post on Dr. Masters blog where you wrote big energy scientists make big money for doing their bidding. That sir seems to work both ways Mr James Hanson seems to have gotten paid up to 720,000 dollars from a George Soros org. and Michael E Mann seems to have gotten 2.5 million from stimulus funds not to mention those scientists who get big money from the Sierra Club or Greenpeace and other environmental org. It would seem to me both sides have their hands in the cookie jar. You see sir I believe in stating both sides of an issue there is scum on the right and just as much scum on the left. All I want are the facts with no agenda on either side but as in politics agenda keeps the money flowing.
Member Since: July 6, 2011 Posts: 0 Comments: 2048
316. cyclonebuster 10:08 PM GMT on July 08, 2011    
Quoting JBastardi:


Evidently many scientists disagree with you. Even some from NOAA are beginning to doubt the veracity of the surface temperature stations.

Global Warming Standstill Confirmed - But How Long Will It Last?
Monday, 04 July 2011 19:10 Dr. David Whitehouse
It is good news that the authors of the PNAS paper Reconciling anthropogenic climate change with observed temperature 1998 %u2013 2008 (Kaufmann et al. 2011) recognise that there has been no global temperature increase since 1998. Even after the standstill appears time and again in peer-reviewed scientific studies, many commentators still deny its reality. We live in the warmest decade since thermometer records began about 150 years ago, but it hasn%u2019t gotten any warmer for at least a decade.

The researchers tweak an out-of-date climate computer model and cherry-pick the outcome to get their desired result. They do not use the latest data on the sun%u2019s influence on the Earth, rendering their results of academic interest only.

They blame China%u2019s increasing coal consumption that they say is adding particles into the atmosphere that reflect sunlight and therefore cool the planet. The effect of aerosols and their interplay with other agents of combustion is a major uncertainty in climate models. Moreover, despite China%u2019s coal burning, data indicate that in the past decade the amount of aerosols in the atmosphere has not increased.

The researchers seek to explain the temperature standstill between 1998 and 2008. They say that the global temperature has increased since then.

This is misleading. There was an El Nino in 2010 (natural cyclic warming) but even that did not raise temperatures above 1998. In fact the standstill has continued to 2010 and 2011 appears to be on course to be a cooler year than any of the preceding ten years.

Tweaking computer models like this proves nothing. The real test is in the real world data. The temperature hasn%u2019t increased for over a decade. For there to be any faith in the underlying scientific assumptions the world has to start warming soon, at an enhanced rate to compensate for it being held back for a decade.

Despite what the authors of this paper state after their tinkering with an out-of-date climate computer model, there is as yet no convincing explanation for the global temperature standstill of the past decade.

Either man-made and natural climatic effects have conspired to completely offset the warming that should have occurred due to greenhouse gasses in the past decade, or our estimation of the %u2018climate sensitivity%u2019 to greenhouse gasses is too large.

This is not an extreme or %u2018sceptic%u2019 position but represents part of the diversity of scientific opinion presented to the IPCC that is seldom reported.

e-mail: david.whitehouse@thegwpf.org


Tell that to the Arctic Ice! It won't listen.
Member Since: January 2, 2006 Posts: 127 Comments: 18774
317. Neapolitan 10:50 PM GMT on July 08, 2011    
Quoting JBastardi:


Evidently many scientists disagree with you. Even some from NOAA are beginning to doubt the veracity of the surface temperature stations.

Global Warming Standstill Confirmed - But How Long Will It Last?
Monday, 04 July 2011 19:10 Dr. David Whitehouse
It is good news that the authors of the PNAS paper Reconciling anthropogenic climate change with observed temperature 1998 %u2013 2008 (Kaufmann et al. 2011) recognise that there has been no global temperature increase since 1998. Even after the standstill appears time and again in peer-reviewed scientific studies, many commentators still deny its reality. We live in the warmest decade since thermometer records began about 150 years ago, but it hasn%u2019t gotten any warmer for at least a decade.

The researchers tweak an out-of-date climate computer model and cherry-pick the outcome to get their desired result. They do not use the latest data on the sun%u2019s influence on the Earth, rendering their results of academic interest only.

They blame China%u2019s increasing coal consumption that they say is adding particles into the atmosphere that reflect sunlight and therefore cool the planet. The effect of aerosols and their interplay with other agents of combustion is a major uncertainty in climate models. Moreover, despite China%u2019s coal burning, data indicate that in the past decade the amount of aerosols in the atmosphere has not increased.

The researchers seek to explain the temperature standstill between 1998 and 2008. They say that the global temperature has increased since then.

This is misleading. There was an El Nino in 2010 (natural cyclic warming) but even that did not raise temperatures above 1998. In fact the standstill has continued to 2010 and 2011 appears to be on course to be a cooler year than any of the preceding ten years.

Tweaking computer models like this proves nothing. The real test is in the real world data. The temperature hasn%u2019t increased for over a decade. For there to be any faith in the underlying scientific assumptions the world has to start warming soon, at an enhanced rate to compensate for it being held back for a decade.

Despite what the authors of this paper state after their tinkering with an out-of-date climate computer model, there is as yet no convincing explanation for the global temperature standstill of the past decade.

Either man-made and natural climatic effects have conspired to completely offset the warming that should have occurred due to greenhouse gasses in the past decade, or our estimation of the %u2018climate sensitivity%u2019 to greenhouse gasses is too large.

This is not an extreme or %u2018sceptic%u2019 position but represents part of the diversity of scientific opinion presented to the IPCC that is seldom reported.

e-mail: david.whitehouse@thegwpf.org

Wait--you state "Even some from NOAA are beginning to doubt the veracity of the surface temperature stations", but then quote an article written by the clueless David Whitehouse* of the ultra-denialist "Global Warming Policy Foundation" (an organization that refuses to disclose its funding source[s] as to do so would be "controversial") that talks bout last week's Kaufmann paper. So, since Whitehouse's article failed to say anything about the "some from NOAA" who "are beginning to doubt the veracity of the surface temperature stations", would you mind please sharing any information you might have?

* - Yes, clueless. Here's his prediction for 2010: "2010 will be remembered for just two warm months [March and June], attributable to the El Nino effect, with the rest of the year being nothing but average, or less than average temperature." Of course, the year went on to be the hottest ever. IOW, clueless.
Member Since: November 8, 2009 Posts: 4 Comments: 11156
318. Neapolitan 11:08 PM GMT on July 08, 2011    
Quoting nymore:
Neapolitan-I was reading your post on Dr. Masters blog where you wrote big energy scientists make big money for doing their bidding. That sir seems to work both ways Mr James Hanson seems to have gotten paid up to 720,000 dollars from a George Soros org. and Michael E Mann seems to have gotten 2.5 million from stimulus funds not to mention those scientists who get big money from the Sierra Club or Greenpeace and other environmental org. It would seem to me both sides have their hands in the cookie jar. You see sir I believe in stating both sides of an issue there is scum on the right and just as much scum on the left. All I want are the facts with no agenda on either side but as in politics agenda keeps the money flowing.

Ah, a little swift-boating going on, I see. Don't believe everything you hear on Fox or read on WUWT, my friend.

Hansen has never received a cent from George Soros.

The amount Michael Mann is alleged to have received varies depending on which denialist blog you read; I've seen figures that range from $450,000 up to $3 million. I'd say that's a little over exaggerated. His school--Penn State--and the University of Hawaii shared a grant of $770,000 for a project called "Improved Projections of the Climate Response to Anthropogenic Forcing: Combining Paleoclimate Proxy and Instrumental Observations with an Earth System Model". Of that money, Mann received $57,000 (or 7.5%) over a three-year period, which works out to $19,000 a year. Even without a calculator, I can see that's somewhat less than the $1 million per year someone like Willie Soon is paid by ExxonMobil, et al. has made over the past decade in fossil fuel research grants alone.

So, from more than $3.2 million to $19K a year. I wonder: does Glenn Beck ever feel the shame that he should?

(The funniest thing is, the denialist who made the baseless claim against Mann, Tom Borelli, was the manager of the Philip Morris Corporate Scientific Affairs department in the 1990s--that is, right at the heart of the "Cigarettes are GOOD for you!!!" campaign. I guess his anti-science stance then made him a great fit for Bug Energy vis-a-vis global warming.)
Member Since: November 8, 2009 Posts: 4 Comments: 11156
319. nymore 11:23 PM GMT on July 08, 2011    
Neapolitan- The information on Hanson comes from Investors Business Daily. I never said it came from Soros but from the Open Society Institute funded by Soros as for Mann that info comes from the Wall Street Journal. The NSF gave Mann 2.5 million dollars in stimulus funds not sure why stimulus funds would go to a scientist I don't see much stimulus coming from that. I did not realize either of these journals were part of the vast conspiracy.
Member Since: July 6, 2011 Posts: 0 Comments: 2048
320. NRAamy 11:27 PM GMT on July 08, 2011    



perfect for when we live in a Water World.....

Member Since: January 24, 2007 Posts: 315 Comments: 31937
321. JBastardi 11:42 PM GMT on July 08, 2011    
Quoting Neapolitan:

Wait--you state "Even some from NOAA are beginning to doubt the veracity of the surface temperature stations", but then quote an article written by the clueless David Whitehouse* of the ultra-denialist "Global Warming Policy Foundation" (an organization that refuses to disclose its funding source[s] as to do so would be "controversial") that talks bout last week's Kaufmann paper. So, since Whitehouse's article failed to say anything about the "some from NOAA" who "are beginning to doubt the veracity of the surface temperature stations", would you mind please sharing any information you might have?

* - Yes, clueless. Here's his prediction for 2010: "2010 will be remembered for just two warm months [March and June], attributable to the El Nino effect, with the rest of the year being nothing but average, or less than average temperature." Of course, the year went on to be the hottest ever. IOW, clueless.


Here you go. Read it and weep.

Link
Member Since: July 5, 2011 Posts: 0 Comments: 403
322. Neapolitan 12:01 AM GMT on July 09, 2011    
Quoting nymore:
Neapolitan- The information on Hanson comes from Investors Business Daily. I never said it came from Soros but from the Open Society Institute funded by Soros as for Mann that info comes from the Wall Street Journal. The NSF gave Mann 2.5 million dollars in stimulus funds not sure why stimulus funds would go to a scientist I don't see much stimulus coming from that. I did not realize either of these journals were part of the vast conspiracy.

IBD did, indeed, print the original Hansen story. They eventually issued a correction, but not before--surprise--NewsBusters or WND or one of those other whack-job sites picked up the ball and ran away with it.

From what I can tell, the WSJ was not the originator of the Mann story, though they did print it (it is, after all, a Rupert Murdoch publication, and we know how high those standards are). But regardless, it's not true as you've repeated that Mann received $2.5 million in stimulus funds. Please read thoroughly my previous comment.

As with the aforementioned "swift boating", repetition of a lie doesn't make it true.
Member Since: November 8, 2009 Posts: 4 Comments: 11156
323. nymore 12:26 AM GMT on July 09, 2011    
Neapolitan- If IBD did indeed print a retraction then I was wrong about Hanson, but it would seem he has enough problems now that NASA is being sued to see if he has had any personal gains from his position to the tune of 1.2 million from outside sources. This on top of his 180,000 dollar base pay. This is hardly just getting by as you put it. I still stand by the Mann facts until proven wrong, if you think throwing out the name Rupert Murdoch makes it go away it does not also just because you say it is not true does not make it so. You need to to have facts against the story. Oh by the way I own Exxon, Trans Canada and some exploration companies and a couple of mining firms does that mean I am for or against climate change no it means I am for making money. Just wanted full disclosure.
Member Since: July 6, 2011 Posts: 0 Comments: 2048
324. Ossqss 2:38 AM GMT on July 09, 2011    
323, I certainly can see much of the same on both sides of this discussion. That is however expected when we politicize the argument.

My real concern is focused on those who are setting policy through their globally published information.

Conflict of interest guidelines for the IPCC
by Judith Curry


Member Since: June 12, 2005 Posts: 6 Comments: 8154
326. nymore 12:58 PM GMT on July 09, 2011    
Neapolitan- I would like a correction in your post about how much money Willie Soon makes per year. you sir gave a figure of 1 million per year. I have found an article in the Guardian newspaper that claims it was 1 million dollars over the last decade not per year. Now let me do a little math Willie Soon 100,000 per year James Hanson 180,000 per year plus tips. You see sir as I claimed both sides have a reason to keep this up. Also sir if you will notice I did not say anything about a crazy left wing newspaper or talk show host same as I did not say anything about some crazy right wing paper or talk show host. That just takes away from the true discussion and if you actually believe that most of people on either side of this issue are not working some kind of angle on it. I will hand you some cotton candy and a balloon and send you out to the carnival midway to enjoy yourself.
Member Since: July 6, 2011 Posts: 0 Comments: 2048
327. Neapolitan 1:27 PM GMT on July 09, 2011    
Quoting nymore:
Neapolitan- I would like a correction in your post about how much money Willie Soon makes per year. you sir gave a figure of 1 million per year. I have found an article in the Guardian newspaper that claims it was 1 million dollars over the last decade not per year. Now let me do a little math Willie Soon 100,000 per year James Hanson 180,000 per year plus tips. You see sir as I claimed both sides have a reason to keep this up.

My bad; it was late (for me) and I was tired, so I inadvertently posted an error. Willie Soon--officially, at least--doesn't take in a million a year. (I've corrected the original comment.) He has, on the other hand, brought in $1 million in grants alone over the past decade...nearly every single cent of it from the fossil fuel industry. That fact alone should certainly call his climate change credibility into question--and, indeed, it does. (And, of course, Soon also makes tons more speaking on behalf of numerous denialist groups.)

Now, NASA James E. Hansen--again--has never received a cent from George Soros. Yes, he has a salary. I'm not sure what it is, but $180K for a degreed scientist (BA, MS, PhD) with nearly 50 years of experience sounds about right, if not a little low.

If people care to engage in not just smearing Hansen with Glenn Beck fantasies about his taking money from Soros, or by confusing a normal science salary with money earned from polluters, they should go right ahead. None of that changes the science; none of that changes the facts: the planet is warming, and warming rapidly.
Member Since: November 8, 2009 Posts: 4 Comments: 11156
329. Neapolitan 1:58 PM GMT on July 09, 2011    
To mirror what Dr. masters wrote over on his blog, I wanted to take a moment to post a couple of PIOMAS ice graphs. Call us alarmists if you want to, but then again, these are pretty alarming. Or should be. The last one, especially. It suggests that, if ice loss continues its exponential downward trend, September Arctic ice volume will be reduced to 0 by 2016. (That doesn't mean it won't re-appear; Arctic ice is almost always at its lowest in September.)

Uh-oh

Uh-oh

Uh-oh

Uh-oh

Uh-oh
Member Since: November 8, 2009 Posts: 4 Comments: 11156
333. Neapolitan 3:15 PM GMT on July 09, 2011    
Quoting cat5hurricane:
Why is it that the only folks that are still crying "Wolf" about climate change are those with Government grants and/or working for the governments?

While other well known educated folks in the scientific field claim that it is a natural event NOT caused by mankind.

The true scientists are claiming that we are still emerging from the last ice age, and are reaching a period of stable temps. It's only because the governments see a way to redistribute the wealth by scaring folks into rash actions.

Be very afraid of The Fraud's plan for us. Question everything.

So thousands of earth scientists from around the globe--even ones from nations unfriendly to each other--are all involved in a vast decades-long conspiracy to defraud the common people? And as part of their global fraud, they've managed to secretly communicate with one another for decades without a single person slipping up and exposing their scam for what it is? And as part of that same plot, they've even managed to convince the oceans to acidify, glaciers and Arctic ice to melt, precipitation patterns to change, and the very seasons to change their start and end dates? And they've managed to do all this on government salaries, while at the same time avoiding the urge to grab any of the billions in Big Energy money offered to those who'll jump ship?

That's quite a tale, I have to tell you. ;-)

I suppose folks can believe that if they wish. Of course, it makes much more sense that the people making hundreds of billions in profits off the current fossil fuel paradigm would spare no expense and effort to maintain that paradigm as long as possible (a paradigm which, by the way, "redistributes wealth" to a relative few at the top). But, hey, people can believe the former if they wish. Who am I to stop them? ;-)
Member Since: November 8, 2009 Posts: 4 Comments: 11156
334. PurpleDrank 3:31 PM GMT on July 09, 2011    
Does the term "swift-boating" really need to be included in AGW debate?

Enter political slogans and themes and the credibility of one's arguments seem biasedly generic and unoriginal.



Member Since: August 17, 2010 Posts: 1 Comments: 730
335. Neapolitan 3:35 PM GMT on July 09, 2011    
Quoting AlabamaWx85:
from :

http://www.iceagenow.com/The_Arctic_is_NOT_warmin g_faster.htm




The Arctic is NOT warming faster
__________________ %uFEFF


18 Sep 09 - The Washington Post recently praised a new study claiming that the Arctic is warming much faster than originally thought......



Arctic scientist Igor Polyakov also showed that the warmest period in the Arctic was from the 1930s through to the 1940s.

A new Arctic study published by Håkan Grudd, of Stockholm University%u2019s Department of Physical Geography and Quaternary Geology, confirms the previous studies.

The Arctic is not warmer now than it was previously, says Grudd. %u201CPeriods around AD750, 1000, 1400, and 1750 were all equally warm, or warmer.%u201D

Ooops! Looks like you got hold of some bad science there.

1) The following self-explanatory trio of charts --which only goes through 2003--is from a paper authored by Polyakov:

uh-oh

This quote is from another Polyakov paper: "The composite temperature record shows that since 1875 the Arctic has warmed by 1.2C, so that over the entire record the warming trend was 0.094C/decade."

2) On the second part, Grudd is furious over the misuse and distortion of his work. 'Nuff said.

It's warm, and getting warmer.

Member Since: November 8, 2009 Posts: 4 Comments: 11156
337. PurpleDrank 3:47 PM GMT on July 09, 2011    
Quoting Neapolitan:

So thousands of earth scientists from around the globe--even ones from nations unfriendly to each other--are all involved in a vast decades-long conspiracy to defraud the common people? And as part of their global fraud, they've managed to secretly communicate with one another for decades without a single person slipping up and exposing their scam for what it is? And as part of that same plot, they've even managed to convince the oceans to acidify, glaciers and Arctic ice to melt, precipitation patterns to change, and the very seasons to change their start and end dates? And they've managed to do all this on government salaries, while at the same time avoiding the urge to grab any of the billions in Big Energy money offered to those who'll jump ship?

That's quite a tale, I have to tell you. ;-)

I suppose folks can believe that if they wish. Of course, it makes much more sense that the people making hundreds of billions in profits off the current fossil fuel paradigm would spare no expense and effort to maintain that paradigm as long as possible (a paradigm which, by the way, "redistributes wealth" to a relative few at the top). But, hey, people can believe the former if they wish. Who am I to stop them? ;-)


Man has changed the Earth's seasonsal change start and end dates? Really? So the equinoxes and solstices of the Sun/Earth have somehow been compensated by Big Energy corporations on a planet 93 million miles away? That's astounding! So how did 40 years of co2 increase effect the Earth's rotation around the sun...and at ununiform intervals?

The spool is being unraveled. AGW theory is no more a plight to slow corporate profits as it is a legitimate threat to the world. Science is being used as a weapon once again. this time, its an economic war.



Member Since: August 17, 2010 Posts: 1 Comments: 730
338. PurpleDrank 3:49 PM GMT on July 09, 2011    
All's Fair In Love and Science
Member Since: August 17, 2010 Posts: 1 Comments: 730
339. Neapolitan 3:51 PM GMT on July 09, 2011    
Quoting cat5hurricane:
333:

You sure sound like you carry alot on your shoulders. A tremendous axe to grind. What a life I tell you.

Hundreds, Millions, Thousands, I don't care what the number. You can glamor Donald Duck with those figures. What we are really searching for is the cause of the recent warming trend, and none are sure it's man-made.

Let me ask you, when we stabilize in a few years. Just what are you going to do with your time?

What axe? please explain.

When we stabilize? That's quite a fantasy. But I'll bite: as I've said before, if by some reversal of the known laws of physics the oceans and air miraculously stopped heating from CO2--and that "stabilization" wasn't due to, say, a large impact event, global thermonuclear war, a supervolcano eruption, or some nation's ill-advised decision to intentionally flood the atmosphere with particulate matter to offset the CO2 warming--I will be at the front of the line of those saying, "I was wrong, and I humbly apologize."

But that's not going to happen, of course. I know it. You know it. And, far more importantly, scientists know it. And much as some might constantly and hopefully repeat the mantra that "none are sure it's mad-made", most scientists definitely are sure--and they're just as sure it's getting worse.

It's warm, and getting warmer.
Member Since: November 8, 2009 Posts: 4 Comments: 11156
340. Neapolitan 3:52 PM GMT on July 09, 2011    
Quoting PurpleDrank:
Does the term "swift-boating" really need to be included in AGW debate?

Enter political slogans and themes and the credibility of one's arguments seem biasedly generic and unoriginal.




What term would you prefer? "Concerted effort to smear a credible scientist by continued repetition of a bald-faced lie" just seemed too long. But I'll tell you what; if you're truly concerned about rhetoric, I'll make an effort to tone down when you cease writing things like "climate hysteria" (#292), "madness" and "hatred for oil and coal corporations" (#294), "forged disaster" (#256), "spouting off about denialism and ignorance" and "universal healthcare" (#240). How about it? ;-)
Member Since: November 8, 2009 Posts: 4 Comments: 11156
342. PurpleDrank 4:13 PM GMT on July 09, 2011    
I'm not sure I understand the premise of the global warming debate.

Just how is an expensive abrupt change in energy consumption going to stop a planet from warming?

This globe could be warming for another 25 thousand years.

What the heck is the goal of climate science anyway?

I just don't get it.

I mean, I know its all about money and scientists need to eat too, but seriously, if you want to talk about being swift-boated, think about those Big Energy corps that have spent billions of dollars over the last few decades on improving their product and production since 1979.

The same scene sort of played out in the early 20th century between private U.S. oil prospectors and the masters of transit, the railroad mega-tycoons. There is no way railroad firms were going to bow down to a new energy concept, they were just going to acquire the entire supply and reap the profits.

Eventually the private oil man was squeezed to oblivion by Big Railroad. The reason was solely to monopolize and dominate.

The exact same thing is happening today. Cripple and Assimilate. Welcome to Gengis Khan Wind & Solar Enterprises, Inc. Homebase: Dover, Deleware
Member Since: August 17, 2010 Posts: 1 Comments: 730
343. martinitony 4:14 PM GMT on July 09, 2011    
1984
we have plenty of Big Brothers right here on this board. And if they can't change the past, they most certainly will assassinate the messengers of truth.
Member Since: July 29, 2009 Posts: 0 Comments: 927
344. PurpleDrank 4:20 PM GMT on July 09, 2011    
Quoting Neapolitan:

What term would you prefer? "Concerted effort to smear a credible scientist by continued repetition of a bald-faced lie" just seemed too long. But I'll tell you what; if you're truly concerned about rhetoric, I'll make an effort to tone down when you cease writing things like "climate hysteria" (#292), "madness" and "hatred for oil and coal corporations" (#294), "forged disaster" (#256), "spouting off about denialism and ignorance" and "universal healthcare" (#240). How about it? ;-)


I can go either way. What ever is more fun. I actually enjoy the current rhetoric, wit, sarcasm and comedy et al. But I will tone it down, for you and you only, if you think our discourse will continue to be intellectual and entertaining.

Member Since: August 17, 2010 Posts: 1 Comments: 730
345. PurpleDrank 4:31 PM GMT on July 09, 2011    
Another note from the early 20th Century Railroad/Oil war

Railroad had its money well invested in Capitol Hill

only years later would Congress dispatch Standard Oil's monopoly

but law ruled after the heavily lobbied railroads completed their goals.

if its true history repeats itself, we'll only know the truth of AGW after the well invested, heavy lobbied anti-corporate environmentalists have destroyed the petroleum industry.

laws will rule after the goals are met.
Member Since: August 17, 2010 Posts: 1 Comments: 730
346. nymore 4:53 PM GMT on July 09, 2011    
Neapolitan- I never tried to smear James Hanson in fact I issued an apology for the facts I had wrong and your right it is fine if Mr. Hanson makes 180,000 a year but by the same token it is not ok that Willie Soon makes 100,000 a year both of these people have the same degrees ( BA, MS, PhD ). I am not taking sides just pointing out hypocrisy on both sides. Clearly they both have an agenda, Willie towing the company line and Hanson on his radical beliefs ( unless some of the statements he has made and being arrested twice are not radical ). I believe both sides should quite listening to the agenda driven people on both side and stick to facts. You know the people who bring politics and cheap shots into every discussion ( Glenn Beck and Jim Pettit ). I hope I have made my point all I and most people want are the facts ( raw data ) not modified data to fit in the frame work of their theory. BTW I know your name is Jim just trying to make a point I hope it got through.
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347. nymore 5:06 PM GMT on July 09, 2011    
I have something else to say who owns a publicly traded company think hard people that's right anyone who buys stock in that company such as individuals, pension funds, hedge funds, 401k plans we all own these companies. If people do not like how they are run buy stock in them make a persuasive argument to other shareholders and vote the board out.
Member Since: July 6, 2011 Posts: 0 Comments: 2048
348. Ossqss 5:58 PM GMT on July 09, 2011    

Here is a question for some of you. Where did the majority of the missing Arctic Sea ice actually melt?

A hint for you :)

Member Since: June 12, 2005 Posts: 6 Comments: 8154
349. JBastardi 7:10 PM GMT on July 09, 2011    
Well the UK Met office has issued a statement that finally realizes that the sun is responsible for half the variability in climate. I think it's more. It doesn't look good for those predicting warming with the current expected decrease in solar activity.

Link
Member Since: July 5, 2011 Posts: 0 Comments: 403
351. Neapolitan 8:05 PM GMT on July 09, 2011    
Quoting cat5hurricane:
339:

I gave you the benefit of the doubt a few days ago after hearing your explanation regarding corporations, now I am not so sure. The continuous belittling of folks who make 100x more money than you'll ever see truly shows your true colors. I am sorry you feel this way. I really am. But there are people I know with money coming out there ears that are miserable. It's not what it's cracked up to be from what you see on TV and such.

Furthermore, it's been proven time and again that there has been far more C02 circulating on the globe before numerous time, and at rates exponentially faster. Remember it is Mother Nature that sets the thermostat, as she's been doing since well before humans ever began walking the Earth.

You may believe all you want that it's getting warming on this globe, but the realty does not echo that sentiment.

The boat is a calling. Have a good weekend everyone.

You must have either read a different comment than the one you noted, or you committed a Freudian slip of sorts; comment 339 doesn't say a thing about either corporations or the wealthy. Can you please highlight which comment you intended? Thanks so much...
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About RickyRood
I'm a professor at U Michigan and lead a course on climate change problem solving. These articles include ideas from the course. And no tuition!

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