God or nihilism.

By: KoritheMan , 2:25 PM GMT on February 05, 2014

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I know this is a weather community, that some people may be offended by this sort of thing, da da da. But with all the other non-weather related blogs I see frequently plastered on this site, I don't see why -- controversial or not -- this type of discussion should be stifled or immediately dismissed. Keep an open mind, and everything will be okay. I implore the WU admins not to delete this. If they do, whatever. Can't say I didn't try. Anyway, coming to the point of this now...

Finally coming to the point of this topic, I'm friends with this Christian dude on Facebook. Another friend of mine is also friends with the guy. The first guy is named Evan, while the second guy is called Chris. Anyway, Evan posted a status update about creationism vs evolution, and naturally there was some devolving into a couple of nihilistic comments. Chris posts a response arguing, essentially, that there should only be two logical possibilities: that god exists or that nihilism is absolutely true. If god does not exist, the only alternative is nihilism. And if we assume nihilism to be a valid maxim, we have to assume all of the implications and encumbrances that come with that. If nihilism is true, then we as individuals have no objective value. And if we have no objective value, we have no basis to make even a relative claim of self-fulfilled purpose, which effectively renders the common "create your own purpose" counter to the nihilistic paradigm vacuous. Because in order to even presume that we have actual purpose -- even relative purpose -- that relativity has to be compared to something. His actual post verbatim went like this:

What I think is the most intellectually accurate and honest response is that there are two "logical" viewpoints. Either God exists, or nihilism is actually true in practice.

What I mean to say is that there are a lot of people out there who find the usual nihilistic response "make your own meaning" to be satisfactory. Unfortunately, if there is no such thing as objective value *in reality*, then this is really just a giant lie. Things can only even have relative value if you yourself already have value, and if nihilism is true, then you do not have value. None at all. And neither does your own sense of value, or your feeling of something be "valuable" to you. And while it is perfectly fine to "feel" this way in the sense that you are fully capable of doing so, it does not actually mean it is correct any more than thinking you can walk through walls when you can't. It is not self consistent or intellectually honest and logical to believe in only "parts" of what is essentially nihilism. It has nothing to do with whether a person is capable of this or not, and everything to do with whether or not you are deceiving yourself / being deceived, which you are if you say that there is no such thing as objective value but still think / talk / live in consideration of a sense of relative value.

The only response to nihilism, or should I say, the only other self consistent possibility, is if God exists. All philosophical inquiry where the assumption of God's existence is absent ultimately leads to nihilism. And nihilism ultimately leads to the total break down of philosophical discourse and logical argument. People will try to deny it, but time and time against since the Ancient Greeks, this has proven to be the case. Ironically enough, Nietzsche, who is often credited with the modern justification for nihilism, also said that in his opinion nihilism MUST be overturned. In his view, modern philosophers would have to find a way to respond to and defeat nihilism, because nihilism was the "will to nothingness" and in the face of it nothing could actually be fundamentally logically proven. And of course there is only one response to that.

God is, or perhaps I should say should be, a "necessary assumption" in philosophy. It is a maxim. All philosophy breaks down without the assumption of the existence of God, JUST like all of math breaks down without the assumption of the existence of numbers or all of physics breaks down without the assumption of causality. Without the existence of God, there is no fundamental source of value, no fundamental source of truth or knowledge, and no fundamental source of being.

It will never be an issue of proof vs. lack of proof, because it is logistically impossibly to prove the existence of what is essentially an infinite. But there is good and perfectly valid reason to believe in the existence of God. That, in the face of the obvious impotence of nihilism, is all that is really required. Nihilism, true nihilism, is ultimately self defeating, and the only reason most people do not realize that is because they only "selectively" engage in it. The assumption of the existence of God however is not self defeating.


What's everyone's thoughts on this? I've been atheist since the 2007-2008 timeframe, and I can honestly say I've never come across something that made me question the very foundation of my worldview to this magnified degree.

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73. KoritheMan
5:49 AM GMT on February 18, 2014

Quoting 71. BaltimoreBrian:
The snake preacher suffered from pride. Pride in ignoring the good sense God gave him (for the sake of argument) and pride in believing he could handle a poisonous snake.
He suffered from stupidity. :]
Member Since: March 7, 2007 Posts: 602 Comments: 21231
72. Astrometeor
5:44 AM GMT on February 18, 2014
Quoting 71. BaltimoreBrian:
The snake preacher suffered from pride. Pride in ignoring the good sense God gave him (for the sake of argument) and pride in believing he could handle a poisonous snake.


Most people remove the poison glands before they do stupid stuff with snakes.
Member Since: July 2, 2012 Posts: 101 Comments: 10449
71. BaltimoreBrian
5:41 AM GMT on February 18, 2014
The snake preacher suffered from pride. Pride in ignoring the good sense God gave him (for the sake of argument) and pride in believing he could handle a poisonous snake.
Member Since: August 9, 2011 Posts: 26 Comments: 8802
70. KoritheMan
5:08 AM GMT on February 18, 2014

Quoting 63. BaltimoreBrian:
Reality show snake-handling preacher dies -- of snakebite

The biter bit.
Why does the South always attract these types of people?
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69. KoritheMan
5:08 AM GMT on February 18, 2014

Quoting 68. Astrometeor:


That's supposedly (maybe not exactly) why Jesus existed/exists. He died for all of our sins. Otherwise, none of us are Christians because none of us follow the religious tenets required to be one.
Not my point. Jesus died for all, but true repentance means actively trying to not do that thing again. If we're actually repentant, it will show in our actions. God did not offer salvation just so people could do whatever they wanted to do.

Christians are supposed to live in this world, but not be of this world. If anyone attempts to say otherwise, well...
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68. Astrometeor
5:00 AM GMT on February 18, 2014
Quoting 66. KoritheMan:

Trinitarian doctrine, for one.

Because it's intellectually dishonest, maybe? To use another example that still hopefully illustrates the point, it's a lot like how certain Christians claim to be Christian, but only pray to say grace, while going out to drunken parties on Saturday nights.


That's supposedly (maybe not exactly) why Jesus existed/exists. He died for all of our sins. Otherwise, none of us are Christians because none of us follow the religious tenets required to be one.
Member Since: July 2, 2012 Posts: 101 Comments: 10449
67. KoritheMan
4:56 AM GMT on February 18, 2014

Quoting 65. Astrometeor:




Right, Kori is against #s V-X.
Most of those inhibitions are pretty archaic, tbh. I agree with III, V, VI, VII (at least if we're defining "adultery" in the traditional sense, not the lust after someone sense), and IX.
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66. KoritheMan
4:55 AM GMT on February 18, 2014
Quoting 64. Astrometeor:


? Since when has there ever been just one?

Trinitarian doctrine, for one. There's also the fact that god repeatedly says throughout the Bible that he's the ONLY god.



Why can't I do the same?
Because it's intellectually dishonest, maybe? To use another example that still hopefully illustrates the point, it's a lot like how certain Christians claim to be Christian, but only pray to say grace, while going out to drunken parties on Saturday nights.
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65. Astrometeor
4:28 AM GMT on February 18, 2014
Quoting 53. KoritheMan:
but I won't deny that I'm pretty vehemently against Christianity and most of its moral tenets. Think Darth Sidious and his aversion to the Jedi. :P




Right, Kori is against #s V-X.
Member Since: July 2, 2012 Posts: 101 Comments: 10449
64. Astrometeor
4:22 AM GMT on February 18, 2014
Quoting 29. KoritheMan:

My point to Nathan was and still is, however, that you can't believe in the divinity of Christ while also believing that there is another being existing alongside him.


? Since when has there ever been just one? Never thought of Christ Jesus being a god per se, that's given to "God"...or Jesus's father. Then there's Jesus, who's divine, and that "Holy Spirit" thingy.

Quoting 46. KoritheMan:
Just because you don't like something, doesn't mean you ignore it. That's called cherry-picking.


Well, that's what the Catholic Church has done for 2,000 years. So has all of the various subsets of Christianity. Why can't I do the same?
Member Since: July 2, 2012 Posts: 101 Comments: 10449
63. BaltimoreBrian
5:54 AM GMT on February 17, 2014
Reality show snake-handling preacher dies -- of snakebite

The biter bit.
Member Since: August 9, 2011 Posts: 26 Comments: 8802
62. sunlinepr
5:50 AM GMT on February 17, 2014

Talking about Religion... or the existence of God....


I found interesting this story given to me from a friend and it was taken from the Bible,

(if you dont believe in the Bible, then, consider it as a fiction story and I post it with much respect for those here who have other beliefs)

Why take in consideration the scriptures? Our daily lives are related and influenced by Christmas, 3kings day and many other Bible related stories... Yes, this year 2014 DC.... Means after the death of Christ...

SO..

THE STORY....


According to the Bible story, God created spiritual creatures with free will. And that is true, we as humans can decide which way, alternative to consider.
When this angel, Satan (Dictionary: meaning from Hebrew adversary,or the oneto accuse, act as adversary;) led Adam and Eve into disobeying God, an important question was raised. Satan did not call into question God’s power. Even Satan knows that there is no limit to God’s power. Rather, Satan questioned God’s right to rule.
By calling God a liar who withholds good from his subjects, Satan charged that God is a bad ruler. (Genesis 3:2-5)

Satan implied that mankind would be better off without God’s rulership. This was an attack on God’s sovereignty, his right to rule.

SO

Adam and Eve rebelled against God.
In effect, they said: “We do not need God as our Ruler. We can decide for ourselves what is right and what is wrong.”

How could God settle that issue? How could he teach all intelligent creatures that the rebels were wrong and that his way truly is best? Someone might say that God should simply have destroyed the rebels and made a fresh start. But God had stated his purpose to fill the earth with the offspring of Adam and Eve, and he wanted them to live in planet earth. (Genesis 1:28)

God always fulfills his purposes. (Isaiah 55:10, 11) Besides that, getting rid of the rebels in Eden would not have answered the question that had been raised regarding God’s right to rule.



AN INTERESTING ILLUSTRATION

Imagine that a teacher is telling his students how to solve a difficult problem.

A clever but rebellious student claims that the teacher’s way of solving the problem is wrong. Implying that the teacher is not capable, this rebel insists that he knows a much better way to solve the problem. Some students think that he is right, and they also become rebellious.

What should the teacher do? If he throws the rebels out of the class, what will be the effect on the other students? Will they not believe that their fellow student and those who joined him are right? All the other students in the class might lose respect for the teacher, thinking that he is afraid of being proved wrong. But suppose that the teacher allows the rebel to show the class how he would solve the problem.


God has done something similar to what the teacher does. Remember that the rebels in Eden were not the only ones involved. Millions of angels were watching. (Job 38:7; Daniel 7:10)

How God handled the rebellion would greatly affect all those angels and eventually all intelligent creation.


So, what has God done? He has allowed Satan to show how he would rule mankind. God has also allowed humans to govern themselves under Satan’s guidance.


The teacher in our illustration knows that the rebel and the students on his side are wrong. But he also knows that allowing them the opportunity to try to prove their point will benefit the whole class. When the rebels fail, all honest students will see that the teacher is the only one qualified to lead the class. They will understand why the teacher thereafter removes any rebels from the class.

Similarly, God knows that all honest hearted humans and angels will benefit from seeing that Satan and his fellow rebels have failed and that humans cannot govern themselves. Like Jeremiah of old, they will learn this vital truth:


Jeremiah 10:23 Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE) I know, O Lord, that the way of man is not in himself, that it is not in man who walks to direct his steps.

So why wait SO LONG?

Why, though, has God allowed suffering to go on for so long? And why does he not prevent bad things from happening?

Well, consider two things that the teacher in our illustration would not do.

First, he would not stop the rebel student from presenting his case.

Second, the teacher would not help the rebel to make his case.

Similarly, consider two things that God has determined not to do.

First, he has not stopped Satan and those who side with him from trying to prove that they are right.
Allowing time to pass has thus been necessary.


In the thousands of years of human history, mankind has been able to try every form of self-rule, or human government.
Mankind has tried Feudalism, Nazism, Democracy, Socialism, Comunism, Dictatorship, Facism and many other forms of human government.



And although mankind has made some advances in science and other fields - injustice, poverty, crime, (pollution - climate change) and war (among many other situations) have grown ever worse.


Human rule under that invisible ruler, has now been shown to be a failure.


Second, God has not helped Satan to rule this world. If God were to prevent horrible crimes, for instance, would he not, in effect, be supporting the case of the rebels?


Would God not be making people think that perhaps humans can govern themselves without disastrous results? If God were to act in that way, he would become party to a lie.

So what we have in front of our eyes, is the result of governments that for thousands of years have brought us to this dead end road.

The moment will come when the teacher will take control of the class.... And that will lead to a real kindom ruled by God to come and be established, Here on planet earth.

That will lead us to

Our Father who art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come,







An interesting story to explain this global mess

NOW....
Leaving the story behind.... May sound boring, from a religious fanatic or like science fiction and the fact that could be considered as a lot of nonsense,



My personal opinion is that God does exists.

And the reason is simple....

You are alone in a desert and after walking for days away from any signs of civilization you find a well constructed, decorated, functional, beautiful house....

Now, Consider Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, Neptune, Uranus.....
Complex planets.... A desert has complex attibutes


But consider how our beautiful planet shines with all its biodiversity and complexity, like a well constructed house between them....


Stupid for me if I would consider planet earth the result of probability... or the result of simple evolution....

Someone VERY intelligent has to be behind all this...
Hebrews 3:4, For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.




Member Since: August 2, 2010 Posts: 21 Comments: 9882
61. WunderAlertBot (Admin)
5:16 AM GMT on February 17, 2014
KoritheMan has created a new entry.
60. Astrometeor
4:33 AM GMT on February 17, 2014
Quoting 59. BaltimoreBrian:


I don't do Manga. Nor anime. Nor any comics, really. Walking slowly away from cartoons as the networks slowly get rid of all the classics.
Member Since: July 2, 2012 Posts: 101 Comments: 10449
59. BaltimoreBrian
4:07 AM GMT on February 17, 2014
Member Since: August 9, 2011 Posts: 26 Comments: 8802
58. Astrometeor
5:07 AM GMT on February 09, 2014
Just finished up with this video. Nye isn't the best of debaters, but the Q&A at the end left huge holes (if you ignored the evidence against him) in Ham's argument, mainly that he didn't answer the questions.

Member Since: July 2, 2012 Posts: 101 Comments: 10449
57. Astrometeor
5:48 AM GMT on February 07, 2014
Quoting 56. KoritheMan:

I didn't really think you'd be offended, but I wanted to make sure anyway.

Picking apart the claims of specific people is actually a very common thing in theological debate. So I just wanted you to know it was all in good fun. Name of the game. :P


Hmm. Just a few months ago you wouldn't budge on anything emotional related. Guess you do have a soft side, after all.

;)

Night Kori.
Member Since: July 2, 2012 Posts: 101 Comments: 10449
56. KoritheMan
5:45 AM GMT on February 07, 2014

Quoting 55. Astrometeor:


I'll reiterate it here. I don't want you assuming I was picking on you for your beliefs. Try and remember though that I've debated religion for many years, so I argue semantics a lot. It's nothing personal, and I still wuv you and stuff. <3

Ok. Wuv u 2.
<3
I didn't really think you'd be offended, but I wanted to make sure anyway.

Picking apart the claims of specific people is actually a very common thing in theological debate. So I just wanted you to know it was all in good fun. Name of the game. :P
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55. Astrometeor
2:59 AM GMT on February 07, 2014
Quoting 52. KoritheMan:
That's a little more acceptable by my perspective, though I still think it would be rather tenuous not to assume that this god (as per Nathan's own words) is actively involved with Earthly affairs. I can think of several Scriptural instances that seem to go directly against the notion that he's not.

And for the record Nathan, you know I respect you buddy, so please don't think I'm picking on you.


I'll reiterate it here. I don't want you assuming I was picking on you for your beliefs. Try and remember though that I've debated religion for many years, so I argue semantics a lot. It's nothing personal, and I still wuv you and stuff. <3

Ok. Wuv u 2.
<3
Member Since: July 2, 2012 Posts: 101 Comments: 10449
54. Naga5000
11:36 AM GMT on February 06, 2014
On a personal note, I was raised Orthodox Catholic, found my way to the Methodist church, agnosticism, and eventually atheism. Through this process I have discovered that religion has many contradictions, the people who practice it even more so, and many people attempt to use religion to justify their actions, and many more try to condemn you for not having religion.

If religion works for you fantastic, I'm glad you found something. No religion works for me, and the religious should feel fantastic about it and not be so concerned with my salvation or lack thereof.

It is possible to be moral without God as it is possible to be immoral with God.

What drove me from the church was a life altering event when I was a kid. As grew older and got more educated on religious history, I began to find that the Abrahamic religions were essentially more refined versions of Zoroastrianism, and that many cultures and civilizations had their own ideas and borrowed and took from others and integrated them. (Example, the Roman, Greek, and Babylonian polytheistic deities).

I guess what it really comes down to is believe in whatever God or lack thereof you want. Find your own way, feel free to borrow moral lessons you agree with and integrate them into your own code of ethics, don't judge others for their religions or lack thereof, but hold them responsible for their actions. Read and learn about all the religions, they are an important social factor in our individual and group lives. An above all else, have empathy for your fellow human beings. We need to care about each other again...this is the hardest part.
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53. KoritheMan
8:32 AM GMT on February 06, 2014
Quoting 49. ncstorm:
I am a Christian..I am a believer.By my own personal experiences I know the power of GOD..GOD truly knows your heart and he will reveal truths, you just have to decide to see..I won't share my personal experiences here as so much ridicule is thrown at one's beliefs.

I will say I have fought a life threatening illness and by the power of Grace GOD brought me through it..My own doctor who is a student of "science" said the Grace of God was given to me..It's my testimony, my walk, and my faith..no one can make you believe unless you choose to do so..

Kori, I wish you well and I pray that you find your answers before you leave this world. GOD be with you :)

Thanks!

I should note that I was a Christian once -- although perhaps that was obvious when I mentioned how long I'd been an atheist.

It's possible I'll come back, but I won't deny that I'm pretty vehemently against Christianity and most of its moral tenets. Think Darth Sidious and his aversion to the Jedi. :P

Can still respect Christians who respect me, though.
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52. KoritheMan
8:29 AM GMT on February 06, 2014
Quoting 50. FLwolverine:
No, you explained yourself well after that first statement that I just didn't understand. You say "it's not the same god if you remove any of the qualities commonly attributed to him". I say that a lot of qualities attributed to the Christian God by all the various denominations and people for the last 2000 years are not part of the essential core of that God, so a person may remove some or many of them and still end up with a vision of God that is within the range of accepted Christian teachings.
That's a little more acceptable by my perspective, though I still think it would be rather tenuous not to assume that this god (as per Nathan's own words) is actively involved with Earthly affairs. I can think of several Scriptural instances that seem to go directly against the notion that he's not.

And for the record Nathan, you know I respect you buddy, so please don't think I'm picking on you.
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51. BaltimoreBrian
5:58 AM GMT on February 06, 2014
Camel bones suggest error in Bible, archaeologists say
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50. FLwolverine
5:47 AM GMT on February 06, 2014
Quoting 46. KoritheMan:
Perhaps I'm not elaborating well enough, but... I still fail to see the point.

I don't know every quality that Nathan is choosing to remove from the Christian incarnation of god, except that he has admitted to not subscribing the "active involvement with the world" quality to him. I still submit that it's not the same god if you remove any of the qualities commonly attributed to him. Just because you don't like something, doesn't mean you ignore it. That's called cherry-picking.

Am I just not explaining myself well enough, or is there a loophole in my argument that everyone's exploiting that I'm oblivious to?
No, you explained yourself well after that first statement that I just didn't understand. You say "it's not the same god if you remove any of the qualities commonly attributed to him". I say that a lot of qualities attributed to the Christian God by all the various denominations and people for the last 2000 years are not part of the essential core of that God, so a person may remove some or many of them and still end up with a vision of God that is within the range of accepted Christian teachings.
Member Since: January 6, 2013 Posts: 3 Comments: 2424
49. ncstorm
5:37 AM GMT on February 06, 2014
I am a Christian..I am a believer.By my own personal experiences I know the power of GOD..GOD truly knows your heart and he will reveal truths, you just have to decide to see..I won't share my personal experiences here as so much ridicule is thrown at one's beliefs.

I will say I have fought a life threatening illness and by the power of Grace GOD brought me through it..My own doctor who is a student of "science" said the Grace of God was given to me..It's my testimony, my walk, and my faith..no one can make you believe unless you choose to do so..

Kori, I wish you well and I pray that you find your answers before you leave this world. GOD be with you :)

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48. yoboi
5:36 AM GMT on February 06, 2014
I would really like to hear from neap about this...awhile back he shared how deep he was brought up in the Church and then changed his mind.... Him and I butt heads about many things but he did have a good message with this subject.........
Member Since: August 25, 2010 Posts: 7 Comments: 2527
47. yoboi
5:29 AM GMT on February 06, 2014
Quoting 44. FLwolverine:
Can't believe I accidentally minused your post! Arrrrgh!

Anyway.... I once had the opportunity to ask two noted Christian theologians what one must believe in order to be a Christian. The very Anglo-Catholic N.T.Wright (now a retired Anglican bishop) listed the resurrection, the Virgin birth, and several other things. The liberal scholar and professor Marcus Borg said "a Christian is a person who finds their path to God through Jesus" (as opposed to Mohammed or Buddha, etc). Very liberating. I recommend Borg's books as an antidote to much current "evangelical" teaching.

Personally, I left the Baptist church because they didn't want me to think.


I am catholic and there are a few things I don't agree with.... being confessing my sins to a human, and some other things....I guess my faith is my belief in the New testament and that can relate to the same message from other religions....I could probably belong to many religions....
Member Since: August 25, 2010 Posts: 7 Comments: 2527
46. KoritheMan
5:28 AM GMT on February 06, 2014
Quoting 38. FLwolverine:
Thanks for explaining your point, because I didn't get it. Nathan can speak for himself, but I didn't read his comment as saying he was setting up to divine beings. It seemed to me more like he was starting with the concept of the Christian god and discarding attributes until he got down to a deity he could accept.

Thanks for the chance to talk about these things, and thanks for keeping the discussion civil.
Perhaps I'm not elaborating well enough, but... I still fail to see the point.

I don't know every quality that Nathan is choosing to remove from the Christian incarnation of god, except that he has admitted to not subscribing the "active involvement with the world" quality to him. I still submit that it's not the same god if you remove any of the qualities commonly attributed to him. Just because you don't like something, doesn't mean you ignore it. That's called cherry-picking.

Am I just not explaining myself well enough, or is there a loophole in my argument that everyone's exploiting that I'm oblivious to?
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45. FLwolverine
5:26 AM GMT on February 06, 2014
Quoting 42. KoritheMan:
If we've devolved to this particular line of discourse, then I would say that the only thing that defines a Christian is belief in Jesus as central to salvation.

That's not coming from me, mind you, that's coming from the very foundations and maxims of Christianity.
OK, but you also know from observation and experience that the Christian God (of whom Jesus is only one of three persons, for most Christians) is defined a wide variety of ways by different denominations and people.
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44. FLwolverine
5:22 AM GMT on February 06, 2014
Quoting 40. Astrometeor:


This exactly.
Can't believe I accidentally minused your post! Arrrrgh!

Anyway.... I once had the opportunity to ask two noted Christian theologians what one must believe in order to be a Christian. The very Anglo-Catholic N.T.Wright (now a retired Anglican bishop) listed the resurrection, the Virgin birth, and several other things. The liberal scholar and professor Marcus Borg said "a Christian is a person who finds their path to God through Jesus" (as opposed to Mohammed or Buddha, etc). Very liberating. I recommend Borg's books as an antidote to much current "evangelical" teaching.

Personally, I left the Baptist church because they didn't want me to think.
Member Since: January 6, 2013 Posts: 3 Comments: 2424
43. KoritheMan
5:16 AM GMT on February 06, 2014

Quoting 37. Bluestorm5:


Well, I try to be as respectful as possible :) Asheville is a major atheist town so you can see why I'm cautious. In fact, I believe atheists outnumber Christians and other religions here on campus.
I believe atheists are no longer a minority like most people think, period. Religious diversity is becoming more and more accepted. Less hiding.
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42. KoritheMan
5:14 AM GMT on February 06, 2014
Quoting 36. FLwolverine:
I think we could have a long discussion about the attributes of "the god as prescribed in Christianity". I know that my view (as an Episcopalian) of god is certainly not the same as the views held by my Catholic or Baptist or even other Anglican friends and acquaintances. For all we know, Nathan's view of god may be well within the bounds of Christian beliefs.
If we've devolved to this particular line of discourse, then I would say that the only thing that defines a Christian is belief in Jesus as central to salvation.

That's not coming from me, mind you, that's coming from the very foundations and maxims of Christianity.
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41. Bluestorm5
5:08 AM GMT on February 06, 2014
Quoting 39. Astrometeor:


You're good Kyle.

I have friends who are Christian Protestants (various), Jain, Jewish, Catholics, Buddhists, Hindus, agnostics, and atheists. I also have friends who would be classifies I guess as "nones" since they've never had contact with religion other than what a textbook will tell you.


Actually, "none" is what I considered as well during high school years. I didn't FULLY rejected God and I held onto little belief, but I had doubts too. During HS years, I just chose to ignore the problem of religion because I really wasn't willing to pick one.
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40. Astrometeor
5:02 AM GMT on February 06, 2014
Quoting 38. FLwolverine:
Thanks for explaining your point, because I didn't get it. Nathan can speak for himself, but I didn't read his comment as saying he was setting up to divine beings. It seemed to me more like he was starting with the concept of the Christian god and discarding attributes until he got down to a deity he could accept.

Thanks for the chance to talk about these things, and thanks for keeping the discussion civil.


This exactly.
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39. Astrometeor
5:00 AM GMT on February 06, 2014
Quoting 37. Bluestorm5:


Well, I try to be as respectful as possible :) Asheville is a major atheist town so you can see why I'm cautious. In fact, I believe atheists outnumber Christians and other religions here.


You're good Kyle.

I have friends who are Christian Protestants (various), Jain, Jewish, Catholics, Buddhists, Hindus, agnostics, and atheists. I also have friends who would be classified I guess as "nones" since they've never had contact with religion other than what a textbook will tell you.
Member Since: July 2, 2012 Posts: 101 Comments: 10449
38. FLwolverine
4:59 AM GMT on February 06, 2014
Quoting 29. KoritheMan:

Sounds a lot like Christian Atheism, which is essentially an atheist that adheres to Christian philosophy without all the extra divinity crap. I don't have any issue with that.

My point to Nathan was and still is, however, that you can't believe in the divinity of Christ while also believing that there is another being existing alongside him.
Thanks for explaining your point, because I didn't get it. Nathan can speak for himself, but I didn't read his comment as saying he was setting up to divine beings. It seemed to me more like he was starting with the concept of the Christian god and discarding attributes until he got down to a deity he could accept.

Thanks for the chance to talk about these things, and thanks for keeping the discussion civil.
Member Since: January 6, 2013 Posts: 3 Comments: 2424
37. Bluestorm5
4:52 AM GMT on February 06, 2014
Quoting 35. KoritheMan:

Good story, Kyle. Thanks for sharing.

And... please. Nothing you said was offensive in even the most negligible way. Relax. :P


Well, I try to be as respectful as possible :) Asheville is a major atheist town so you can see why I'm cautious. In fact, I believe atheists outnumber Christians and other religions here on campus.
Member Since: August 1, 2011 Posts: 28 Comments: 8046
36. FLwolverine
4:50 AM GMT on February 06, 2014
Quoting 23. KoritheMan:
............Either he is or isn't the god as prescribed in Christianity; there is no middle ground.......
I think we could have a long discussion about the attributes of "the god as prescribed in Christianity". I know that my view (as an Episcopalian) of god is certainly not the same as the views held by my Catholic or Baptist or even other Anglican friends and acquaintances. For all we know, Nathan's view of god may be well within the bounds of Christian beliefs.
Member Since: January 6, 2013 Posts: 3 Comments: 2424
35. KoritheMan
4:44 AM GMT on February 06, 2014

Quoting 34. Bluestorm5:
Well, here we go...

I've believed in God the first part of my life since my deaf school was a Catholic school, although I wasn't baptized or a Catholic since leaving deaf school but a Christian with lot of freedom on beliefs. I grew up learning about the Old Testament and New Testament of the Bible. I also followed the teachings of Jesus Christ with all of my heart. However, my life got really messed up during high school years and I actually start questioning the very existence of God. Actually, my doubt in God during those years was also as result of me loving science more than anything else and believing in evidences. For the last few years before 2nd half of my senior year of HS, I was leaning toward atheism. However, my depression disappeared and a friend took me back to church just few months ago. I've spend last few months repairing my relationship with God and I've realized that he was truly there for me throughout my life. The last few years was just his challenge to me to see if I'm strong enough. It's just hard to explain how lucky I've been all of my life, especially the fact my life is full of miracles and lucky breaks, but in my heart, God is just there. I also managed to make an agreement between my beliefs and science somehow. That's just my opinion on this whole thing...

HOWEVER, it's perfectly acceptable for others to believe in other religions or chose to not believe in anything. I went down the same path soul searching and found some answers to myself and I believe you will eventually :) Please do not view this post as attack against atheism because I fully support everybody on here no matter what. We've all different and I don't understand why people are still attacking each other over religions in 21st century.
Good story, Kyle. Thanks for sharing.

And... please. Nothing you said was offensive in even the most negligible way. Relax. :P
Member Since: March 7, 2007 Posts: 602 Comments: 21231
34. Bluestorm5
4:38 AM GMT on February 06, 2014
Well, here we go...

I've believed in God the first part of my life since my deaf school was a Catholic school, although I wasn't baptized or a Catholic since leaving deaf school but a Christian with lot of freedom on beliefs. I grew up learning about the Old Testament and New Testament of the Bible. I also followed the teachings of Jesus Christ with all of my heart. However, my life got really messed up during high school years and I actually start questioning the very existence of God. Actually, my doubt in God during those years was also as result of me loving science more than anything else and believing in evidences. For the last few years before 2nd half of my senior year of HS, I was leaning toward atheism. However, my depression disappeared and a friend took me back to church just few months ago. I've spend last few months repairing my relationship with God and I've realized that he was truly there for me throughout my life. The last few years was just his challenge to me to see if I'm strong enough. It's just hard to explain how lucky I've been all of my life, especially the fact my life is full of miracles and lucky breaks, but in my heart, God is just there. I also managed to make an agreement between my beliefs and science somehow. That's just my opinion on this whole thing...

HOWEVER, it's perfectly acceptable for others to believe in other religions or chose to not believe in anything. I went down the same path soul searching and found some answers to myself and I believe you will eventually :) Please do not view this post as attack against atheism because I fully support everybody on here no matter what. We've all different and I don't understand why people are still attacking each other over religions in 21st century.
Member Since: August 1, 2011 Posts: 28 Comments: 8046
33. yoboi
4:37 AM GMT on February 06, 2014
Kori, let me just share this with you. I am not going to get to debate with anyone about if God exist or does not....when I was younger I questioned God's existence many times because I had several family members lose there life as kids a very young age....I asked why what did they ever do to deserve to die so young....then when I got older I had something that almost took my life away....It made me look at things in a different way... I read the entire bible many times and on verse that brought me to understand was psalm 25.....It connected with what I was going thru....Nobody can answer for you if God really exist...you will have to open your heart up and ask that question for yourself..... and whatever you come to believe you will be at peace with that.... I have some friends that believe in God and have some that do not believe in God....I don't judge anyone with their belief....I can say this there are a few friends that do not believe in God and they have very good hearts.......It really came down to this for me... I read the Bible and felt the overall message was good and yes I believe in God with my heart....If when I die and he was fake what did I really lose??? If when I die and he is real what do gain....Like I said open your heart up and ask the questions only YOU and nobody else can answer for you.....Best of luck Kori....
Member Since: August 25, 2010 Posts: 7 Comments: 2527
32. KoritheMan
4:35 AM GMT on February 06, 2014

Quoting 31. nigel20:
Hi Kori!

I believe that there is a god, but who gGd is? I can't say specifically.

My belief is based on the theory of the universe's creation. From what we know, the universe was created by the big bang. Correct? We know that the universe is also expanding at a rapid pace, thanks to the discovery of Edwin Hubble. But what created the big bang? What's the source of energy and why were subatomic particles(proton, neutron, electron, neutrino, positron...etc) created?

I know that some will counter the above argument, about the existence of such a God. Such as who created God? Is god infinite? I can't give an answer, but until we're able to prove that something can be created out of nothing, then i believe that there is a God.

I can be convinced otherwise though.
That's a relief! So can I. :P
Member Since: March 7, 2007 Posts: 602 Comments: 21231
31. nigel20
4:33 AM GMT on February 06, 2014
Hi Kori!

I believe that there is a God, but who God is? I can't say specifically.

My belief is based on the theory of the universe's creation. From what we know, the universe was created from the big bang. Correct? We know that the universe is also expanding at a rapid pace, thanks to the discovery of Edwin Hubble. But what created the big bang? What's the source of energy and why were subatomic particles(proton, neutron, electron, neutrino, positron...etc) created?

I know that some will counter the above argument, about the existence of such a God. Such as who created God? Is god infinite? I can't give an answer, but until we're able to prove that something can be created out of nothing, then i believe that there is a God.

I can be convinced otherwise though.
Member Since: November 6, 2010 Posts: 12 Comments: 8421
30. BaltimoreBrian
4:32 AM GMT on February 06, 2014
Member Since: August 9, 2011 Posts: 26 Comments: 8802
29. KoritheMan
4:30 AM GMT on February 06, 2014

Quoting 26. FLwolverine:
Kori, it took me awhile to figure out what you meant here. I thnk it was the use of the word "personify" that threw me. I think you mean that the Christian concept of "god" and the deist concept of "god" are mutually exclusive - no overlap.

Well, maybe not. Here's something I found while trying to get a better understanding of the term "deism". From Wiki (of course) but with a reference to a real study.

"Christian deism, in the philosophy of religion, is a standpoint that branches from Christianity. It refers to a deist who believes in the moral teachings—but not divinity—of Jesus. Corbett and Corbett (1999) cite John Adams and Thomas Jefferson as exemplars."

Michael Corbett and Julia Mitchell Corbett, Politics and religion in the United States (1999) p. 68
Sounds a lot like Christian Atheism, which is essentially an atheist that adheres to Christian philosophy without all the extra divinity crap. I don't have any issue with that.

My point to Nathan was and still is, however, that you can't believe in the divinity of Christ while also believing that there is another being existing alongside him.
Member Since: March 7, 2007 Posts: 602 Comments: 21231
28. KoritheMan
4:28 AM GMT on February 06, 2014
Quoting 27. yoboi:



Do you think the message from the New testament is wrong and promoted an evil message???
That's a pretty ambiguous question. Define "message"? Do you mean the Great Commission?
Member Since: March 7, 2007 Posts: 602 Comments: 21231
27. yoboi
4:18 AM GMT on February 06, 2014
Quoting 24. KoritheMan:

I've read all of the NT several times, and half of the OT. I've studied to an extent on Biblical exegesis and scholarly interpretation. That's actually why I don't read the Bible anymore, besides the fact that western religions don't really appeal to me; it's not a book that can just be taken at face value. And we would say that about most any literature.



Do you think the message from the New testament is wrong and promoted an evil message???
Member Since: August 25, 2010 Posts: 7 Comments: 2527
26. FLwolverine
4:17 AM GMT on February 06, 2014
Quoting 11. KoritheMan:
By the way Nathan, you can't personify the Christian God as deistic. They're mutually exclusive. Two entirely different beings with entirely different properties/attributions.

Just wanted to point that out.
Kori, it took me awhile to figure out what you meant here. I thnk it was the use of the word "personify" that threw me. I think you mean that the Christian concept of "god" and the deist concept of "god" are mutually exclusive - no overlap.

Well, maybe not. Here's something I found while trying to get a better understanding of the term "deism". From Wiki (of course) but with a reference to a real study.

"Christian deism, in the philosophy of religion, is a standpoint that branches from Christianity. It refers to a deist who believes in the moral teachings%u2014but not divinity%u2014of Jesus. Corbett and Corbett (1999) cite John Adams and Thomas Jefferson as exemplars."

Michael Corbett and Julia Mitchell Corbett, Politics and religion in the United States (1999) p. 68

Edited: obviously it took me awhile to write this and the conversation moved on. Hope this isn't redundant.
Member Since: January 6, 2013 Posts: 3 Comments: 2424
25. TropicalAnalystwx13
4:16 AM GMT on February 06, 2014
I'm not a religious person. If God exists, cool. If he doesn't, okay. I'll live my life either way.
Member Since: July 6, 2010 Posts: 113 Comments: 32711
24. KoritheMan
4:14 AM GMT on February 06, 2014

Quoting 20. yoboi:



Have you read the entire Bible???
I've read all of the NT several times, and half of the OT. I've studied to an extent on Biblical exegesis and scholarly interpretation. That's actually why I don't read the Bible anymore, besides the fact that western religions don't really appeal to me; it's not a book that can just be taken at face value. And we would say that about most any literature.
Member Since: March 7, 2007 Posts: 602 Comments: 21231
23. KoritheMan
4:12 AM GMT on February 06, 2014

Quoting 22. Astrometeor:


Can't he be my God? Maybe I'll name him Kori, and go find some irony to boot. Yes, I think that would be hilarious. My God's name is now Kori, and Kori still carries some Christian things around in his presence.

I believe in a branch called Nathan-deism.

:D

He can definitely be your god, but that's about the extent of it; he's a god YOU created, and while he still might carry some of the qualities attributed to the Christian incarnation of god, that doesn't mean he is the Christian God. Either he is or isn't the god as prescribed in Christianity; there is no middle ground.

It would be like me saying I'm not a video game aficionado just because I haven't played every video game there is to play.

And yes, I quite like the idea of naming a god after me. Always did magnify myself to that level. Well, maybe. ;)
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About KoritheMan

I'm just a 23 year old with an ardent passion for weather. I first became aware of this interest after Tropical Storm Isidore struck my area in 2002.