Hurricane Sandy's huge size: freak of nature or climate change?

By: Dr. Jeff Masters , 1:10 PM GMT on November 13, 2012

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Hurricane Sandy was truly astounding in its size and power. At its peak size, twenty hours before landfall, Sandy had tropical storm-force winds that covered an area nearly one-fifth the area of the contiguous United States. Since detailed records of hurricane size began in 1988, only one tropical storm (Olga of 2001) has had a larger area of tropical storm-force winds, and no hurricanes has. Sandy's area of ocean with twelve-foot seas peaked at 1.4 million square miles--nearly one-half the area of the contiguous United States, or 1% of Earth's total ocean area. Most incredibly, ten hours before landfall (9:30 am EDT October 30), the total energy of Sandy's winds of tropical storm-force and higher peaked at 329 terajoules--the highest value for any Atlantic hurricane since at least 1969. This is 2.7 times higher than Katrina's peak energy, and is equivalent to five Hiroshima-sized atomic bombs. At landfall, Sandy's tropical storm-force winds spanned 943 miles of the the U.S. coast. No hurricane on record has been wider; the previous record holder was Hurricane Igor of 2010, which was 863 miles in diameter. Sandy's huge size prompted high wind warnings to be posted from Chicago to Eastern Maine, and from Michigan's Upper Peninsula to Florida's Lake Okeechobee--an area home to 120 million people. Sandy's winds simultaneously caused damage to buildings on the shores of Lake Michigan at Indiana Dunes National Lakeshore, and toppled power lines in Nova Scotia, Canada--locations 1200 miles apart!

Largest Atlantic tropical cyclones for area covered by tropical storm-force winds:

Olga, 2001: 780,000 square miles
Sandy, 2012: 560,000 square miles
Lili, 1996: 550,000 square miles
Igor, 2010: 550,000 square miles
Karl, 2004: 430,000 square miles



Figure 1. Hurricane Sandy’s winds (top), on October 28, 2012, when Sandy was a Category 1 hurricane with top winds of 75 mph (this ocean surface wind data is from a radar scatterometer on the Indian Space Research Organization’s (ISRO) Oceansat-2.) Hurricane Katrina’s winds (bottom) on August 28, 2005, when Katrina was a Category 5 hurricane with top winds of 175 mph (data taken by a radar scatterometer on NASA’s defunct QuickSCAT satellite.) In both maps, wind speeds above 65 kilometers (40 miles) per hour are yellow; above 80 kph (50 mph) are orange; and above 95 kph (60 mph) are dark red. The most noticeable difference is the extent of the strong wind fields. For Katrina, winds over 65 kilometers per hour stretched about 500 kilometers (300 miles) from edge to edge. For Sandy, winds of that intensity spanned an region of ocean three times as great--1,500 kilometers (900 miles). Katrina was able to generate a record-height storm surge over a small area of the Mississippi coast. Sandy generated a lower but highly destructive storm surge over a much larger area, due to the storm's weaker winds but much larger size. Image credit: NASA.

How did Sandy get so big?
We understand fairly well what controls the peak strength of a hurricane's winds, but have a poor understanding of why some hurricanes get large and others stay small. A number of factors probably worked together to create a "prefect storm" situation that allowed Sandy to grow so large, and we also must acknowledge that climate change could have played a role. Here are some possible reasons why Sandy grew so large:

1) Initial size of the disturbance that became Sandy was large
Sandy formed from an African tropical wave that interacted with a large area of low pressure that covered most of the Central Caribbean. Rotunno and Emanuel (1987) found that hurricanes that form from large initial tropical disturbances like Sandy did tend to end up large in size.


Figure 2. The initial disturbance that spawned Sandy, seen here on October 20, 2012, was quite large.

2) High relative humidity in Sandy's genesis region
The amount of moisture in the atmosphere may play an important role in how large a hurricane gets (Hill and Lackmann, 2009.) Sandy was spawned in the Caribbean in a region where the relative humidity was near 70%. This is the highest humidity we saw during 2012 during the formation of any Atlantic hurricane.

3) Passage over Cuba
Sandy struck Cuba as an intensifying Category 2 hurricane with 110 mph winds. While the core of the storm was over Cuba, it was cut off from the warm ocean waters surrounding Cuba. Most of Sandy's large circulation was still over the ocean, though, and the energy the storm was able to extract from the ocean went into intensifying the spiral bands over water. When Sandy's core re-emerged over water, the hurricane now had spiral bands with heavier thunderstorm activity as a result of the extra energy pumped into the outer portion of the storm during the eye's passage over land. This extra energy in the outer portions of Sandy may have enabled it to expand in size later.

4) Interaction with a trough of low pressure over the Bahamas
As Sandy passed through the Bahamas on October 25, the storm encountered strong upper-level winds associated with a trough of low pressure to the west. These winds created high wind shear that helped weaken Sandy and destroy the eyewall. However, Sandy compensated by spreading out its tropical storm-force winds over a much wider area. Between 15 and 21 UTC on October 25, Sandy's area of tropical storm-force winds increased by more than a factor of two.

5) Leveraging of the Earth's spin
As storms move towards Earth's poles, they acquire more spin, since Earth's rotation works to put more vertical spin into the atmosphere the closer one gets to the pole. This extra spin helps storms grow larger, and we commonly see hurricanes grow in size as they move northwards.

6) Interaction with a trough of low pressure at landfall
As Sandy approached landfall in New Jersey, it encountered an extratropical low pressure system to its west. This extratropical storm began pumping cold air aloft into the hurricane, which converted Sandy into an extratropical low pressure system, or "Nor'easter". The nature of extratropical storms is to have a much larger area with strong winds than a hurricane does, since extratropical storms derive their energy from the atmosphere along a frontal boundary that is typically many hundreds of miles long. Thus, as Sandy made landfall, the hurricane's strongest winds spread out over a larger area, causing damage from Indiana to Nova Scotia.

Are we likely to see more such storms in the future?
Global warming theory (Emanuel, 2005) predicts that a 2°C (3.6°F) increase in ocean temperatures should cause an increase in the peak winds of the strongest hurricanes of about about 10%. Furthermore, warmer ocean temperatures are expected to cause hurricanes to dump 20% more rain in their cores by the year 2100, according to computer modeling studies (Knutson et al., 2010). However, there has been no published work describing how hurricane size may change with warmer oceans in a future climate. We've seen an unusual number of Atlantic hurricanes with large size in recent years, but we currently have no theoretical or computer modeling simulations that can explain why this is so, or if we might see more storms like this in the future. However, we've seen significant and unprecedented changes to our atmosphere in recent decades, due to our emissions of heat-trapping gases like carbon dioxide. The laws of physics demand that the atmosphere must respond. Atmospheric circulation patterns that control extreme weather events must change, and we should expect extreme storms to change in character, frequency, and intensity as a result--and not always in the ways our computer models may predict. We have pushed our climate system to a fundamentally new, higher-energy state where more heat and moisture is available to power stronger storms, and we should be concerned about the possibility that Hurricane Sandy's freak size and power were partially due to human-caused climate change.

References
Emanuel, K. (2005). Increasing destructiveness of tropical cyclones over the past 30 years. Nature, 436(7051), 686-688.

Hill, Kevin A., and Gary M. Lackmann (2009), "Influence of environmental humidity on tropical cyclone size," Monthly Weather Review 137.10 (2009): 3294-3315.

Knutson, T. R., McBride, J. L., Chan, J., Emanuel, K., Holland, G., Landsea, C., ... & Sugi, M. (2010). Tropical cyclones and climate change. Nature Geoscience, 3(3), 157-163.

Rotunno, R., & Emanuel, K. A. (1987). An air–sea interaction theory for tropical cyclones. Part II: Evolutionary study using a nonhydrostatic axisymmetric numerical model. J. Atmos. Sci, 44(3), 542-561.

The Atlantic is quiet, but a Nor'easter expected next week
The Atlantic is quiet, with no threat areas to discuss. An area of low pressure is predicted to develop just north of Bermuda on Wednesday, and the GFS model predicts that this low could become a subtropical cyclone as moves north-northeastwards out to sea late in the week.

The long-range models are in increasing agreement that a Nor'easter will develop near the North Carolina coast on Sunday, then move north to northeastwards early next week. High winds, heavy rain, and coastal flooding could affect the mid-Atlantic coast and New England coasts next Monday and Tuesday due to this storm, but it appears likely that the Nor'easter will stay farther out to sea than the last Nor'easter and have less of an impact on the region devastated by Sandy. Ocean temperatures off the coast of North Carolina were cooled by about 4°F (2.2°C) due to the churning action of Hurricane Sandy's winds, but are still warm enough at 22 - 24°C to potentially allow the Nor'easter to acquire some subtropical characteristics. I doubt the storm would be able to become a named subtropical storm, but it could have an unusual amount of heavy rain if it does become partially tropical. The Nor'easter is still a long ways in the future, and there is still a lot of uncertainty on where the storm might go.

Jeff Masters

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folks we need to get back to weather in here.............FREEZE WARNING REMAINS IN EFFECT FROM 2 AM TO 8 AM CST
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Quoting hydrus:
It is also funny that some people dont accept our way of democracy anymore simply because there guy did not win. Maybe some states should succeed, and we will be entertained by whatever type of government they chose to supplant the current one.
yes i agree,then we'll see them here howling about how bad they have it then..but..we still in the USA wont have to pay for them anymore viva USA all the way for me
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209. yoboi
Quoting LurkyMcLurkerson:


How far back would you like to go? Because I tend to figure that the relevant info for, you know, humanity -- that probably clusters around the last few thousand years, during which time we learned to raise crops and so on.

And data gets harder to come by going farther back, though there is some. We tend to focus on more recent human history because we know the data collection to be fairly sound, as opposed to reports from some random guy in 1286. The random guy is still useful, it's just that comparing his observations to a satellite or at least to the other systems we developed in the last 150 years or so is not so easy.


what i am trying to figure out does climate go in cycles...
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Quoting yoboi:


i was not trying to make a point was just trying to recall if i read something about that...


Gotcha. Yeah, it did. The earlier biggish quake in Chile did a little bit, too, but this one more dramatically. It's a weird thing to think about, cool and a little bit of a strange "huh, this really is just a big spinny ball of stuff" reminder.

The days shortened by 1.8 microseconds. Had to look it up to make sure I was remembering: link

So now, we can tell all kids born after that we had to make it through longer days, uphill both ways in the snow...
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Quoting yoboi:


should we only use modern records?


How far back would you like to go? Because I tend to figure that the relevant info for, you know, humanity -- that probably clusters around the last few thousand years, during which time we learned to raise crops and so on.

And data gets harder to come by going farther back, though there is some. We tend to focus on more recent human history because we know the data collection to be fairly sound, as opposed to reports from some random guy in 1286. The random guy is still useful, it's just that comparing his observations to a satellite or at least to the other systems we developed in the last 150 years or so is not so easy.
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Quoting Grothar:
Secession, depression, regression, oh my!

When you guys calm down can somebody send me a quick message? I want to post some weather images.




If you can throw in a few fighting words along with your weather images I think you'll be good...
Member Since: March 26, 2006 Posts: 44 Comments: 1520
205. yoboi
Quoting LurkyMcLurkerson:


That huge quake in Japan did very slightly change our tilt, yes. What point are you trying to link to that? The earth still has an axial tilt. I brought up the tilt because there _is_ one, and it effects heat distribution on the planet. The fact that the tilt changed by a few inches doesn't change that point.

I mean, it's neat and jaw-dropping to think that it was big enough to do that, but the earth does wobble here and there.

It also made our days very slightly shorter, by the by.


i was not trying to make a point was just trying to recall if i read something about that...
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204. HadesGodWyvern (Mod)
Japan Meteorological Agency
Tropical Cyclone Advisory #1
TROPICAL DEPRESSION 26
3:00 AM JST November 14 2012
=======================================

SUBJECT: Tropical Depression In South China Sea

At 18:00 PM UTC, Tropical Depression (1006 hPa) located at 7.4N 110.6E has 10 minute sustained winds of 30 knots with gusts of 45 knots. The depression is reported as moving west northwest at 8 knots.

Dvorak Intensity: T2.0

Forecast and Intensity
========================
24 HRS: 7.7N 107.4E - 35 knots (CAT 1/Tropical Storm) South China Sea
Member Since: May 24, 2006 Posts: 51 Comments: 45616
Quoting yoboi:


was there a large earthquake a few yrs back that changed the tilt & axis of the earth???


That huge quake in Japan did very slightly change our tilt, yes. What point are you trying to link to that? The earth still has an axial tilt. I brought up the tilt because there _is_ one, and it effects heat distribution on the planet. The fact that the tilt changed by a few inches doesn't change that point.

I mean, it's neat and jaw-dropping to think that it was big enough to do that, but the earth does wobble here and there.

It also made our days very slightly shorter, by the by.
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Quoting trHUrrIXC5MMX:
WINTER WEATHER UPDATE
__________________________

Adak major storm...tropical storm force with hurricane gusts reported
That was yesterday's 6.4 quake south of AK/CAN border


as always click on the pic for a better quality


Adak??
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Quoting MrMixon:


And once again we see that local atmospheric water vapor levels are positively correlated with the awesomeness the astronomical event at a given area.

In other words: it's always #$%*ing cloudy when there's an eclipse or a meteor shower (at least in Colorado... whose normal blue skies always cloud up when a major astronomical event begins...)



Try this one .... Link

Several links available ... heard another was clearing up
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200. yoboi
Quoting Minnemike:
that is not data, that is the most cherry picked "graph" i've ever seen on climate. wow, you just don't get data do you?


can you put data on a graph?
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Quoting AGWcreationists:
Nice selective editing of data. Temps plunged since 2009.


Are you seriously calling "selective editing" and then showing data over a 15 year period to try and use a three year sample to prove that the earth is not warming anymore? Because that's what it looks like.
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Quoting AGWcreationists:
Nice selective editing of data. Temps plunged since 2009.


That graph is a pure fabrication, and shows just how desperate the denier camp has become.
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Secession, depression, regression, oh my!

When you guys calm down can somebody send me a quick message? I want to post some weather images.


Member Since: Posts: Comments:
Quoting AGWcreationists:
Nice selective editing of data. Temps plunged since 2009.
that is not data, that is the most cherry picked "graph" i've ever seen on climate. wow, you just don't get data do you?
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195. yoboi
Quoting LurkyMcLurkerson:


Warming has _not_ been flat. I have no idea where you would even get that from.

Not flat.

Nope. Not flat.

From the last link: "There are slight differences in global records between groups at NCDC, NASA, and the University of East Anglia. Each group calculates global temperature year by year, using slightly different techniques. However, analyses from all three groups point to the decade between 2000 and 2009 as the hottest since modern records began more than a century ago."


should we only use modern records?
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Quoting LurkyMcLurkerson:


Warming has _not_ been flat. I have no idea where you would even get that from.

Not flat.

Nope. Not flat.

From the last link: "There are slight differences in global records between groups at NCDC, NASA, and the University of East Anglia. Each group calculates global temperature year by year, using slightly different techniques. However, analyses from all three groups point to the decade between 2000 and 2009 as the hottest since modern records began more than a century ago."
Nice selective editing of data. Temps plunged since 2009.
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Quoting MrMixon:


And once again we see that local atmospheric water vapor levels are positively correlated with the awesomeness the astronomical event at a given area.

In other words: it's always #$%*ing cloudy when there's an eclipse or a meteor shower (at least in Colorado... whose normal blue skies always cloud up when a major astronomical event begins...)


Heh. "Mixon's Law."

Happens here, too. "OOOoo, there's going to be an awesome meteor shower! Oh, crap, it's going to rain that night."

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Quoting FunnelVortex:


Why are you so arrogant?

You yell at, insult, and pick fights with everyone who doesnt agree with you on AGW.


And with that, he is part of the problem. The uncompromising position he stands for will cause the other side to dig in their heels as well and will ensure nothing gets done ... like they do in Washington ... but at least they can blame it on the other side.
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Quoting docrod:
Total eclipse coverage starting

Link

First contact on one of the streams


And once again we see that local atmospheric water vapor levels are positively correlated with the awesomeness the astronomical event at a given area.

In other words: it's always #$%*ing cloudy when there's an eclipse or a meteor shower (at least in Colorado... whose normal blue skies always cloud up when a major astronomical event begins...)
Member Since: March 26, 2006 Posts: 44 Comments: 1520
190. yoboi
Quoting LurkyMcLurkerson:


My point was that there's no fact based way to compare the same storm in different conditions, since we only have one reality (so far as we experience, anyway -- I'll skip the foray into weird quantum physics things.)

Here's some things we _do_ know:

CO2 (and methane and so on) holds heat differently than other constituents of the atmosphere.

We are adding CO2 to the atmosphere, increasing its proportion.

This will change the way the atmosphere holds heat energy.

That heat energy will be unevenly distributed -- both because the earth is a round spinny thing, and because it is tilted and therefore still has seasonal variation.

Uneven heat changes will change local pressure systems. You cannot change temp gradients without changing pressure gradients. If it's hotter in the arctic, the pressure systems across the entire northern hemisphere "feel" that.

Local pressure systems interact with other pressure systems, and will move in different ways. Circulations will change. The details, that's complicated. They can't not change, though. That's fundamental fluid dynamics.

A hotter atmosphere will also have more ability to hold gaseous water.

The ocean is a great heat sink for the earth, and it is warming considerably (and also unevenly.) This can effect ocean currents, and it has a huge effect on weather systems as a whole -- as anybody on this blog should be plenty aware, given the focus on SST.

I could go on. There is nothing here that's especially debatable. These are facts, all based fundamentally in physical law.


was there a large earthquake a few yrs back that changed the tilt & axis of the earth???
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Quoting AGWcreationists:
"Do you have any idea how much total molecular kinetic energy is represented by 2 degrees C averaged across the planet?" And where do you get your 2 C increase? You are ASSUMING that CO2 will cause the warming predicted by models - yet warming has been flat for the last 15 years, contrary to the prediction of the models. So in saying MUST change, it is based on an underlying assumption that has not been borne out as of late by the models.

Flat eh?
oh, you mean since the last highest outlying freak temp ever in recorded history?... because as we all know, time began during the peak of the 1998 El Nino..
you could not be more incorrect about this so called "flat" temperature of the last 15yrs. my source? every statistic released regarding satellite observed temperatures accumulated throughout the satellite era.
and queue Watt's misrepresentation of UAH graphs starting in 1998, not dated beyond 2009...
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Quoting AGWcreationists:
"Do you have any idea how much total molecular kinetic energy is represented by 2 degrees C averaged across the planet?" And where do you get your 2 C increase? You are ASSUMING that CO2 will cause the warming predicted by models - yet warming has been flat for the last 15 years, contrary to the prediction of the models. So in saying MUST change, it is based on an underlying assumption that has not been borne out as of late by the models.


Complete and utter nonsense. According to the NASA GISS data, globally, 2010 is the warmest year on record, at 0.64 degrees C above the average for 1951-80.

These are the decadal average temperature anomalies with reference to 1951-80:

1981-90 0.20C
1991-00 0.32C
2001-10 0.55C

You need to stop reading the antiscience on denier websites.

Link
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Quoting AGWcreationists:
"Do you have any idea how much total molecular kinetic energy is represented by 2 degrees C averaged across the planet?" And where do you get your 2 C increase? You are ASSUMING that CO2 will cause the warming predicted by models - yet warming has been flat for the last 15 years, contrary to the prediction of the models. So in saying MUST change, it is based on an underlying assumption that has not been borne out as of late by the models.


Warming has _not_ been flat. I have no idea where you would even get that from.

Not flat.

Nope. Not flat.

From the last link: "There are slight differences in global records between groups at NCDC, NASA, and the University of East Anglia. Each group calculates global temperature year by year, using slightly different techniques. However, analyses from all three groups point to the decade between 2000 and 2009 as the hottest since modern records began more than a century ago."
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Quoting nrtiwlnvragn:


The constitutional argument did not work in 1861.


No, but the war argument certainly did.
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Quoting FunnelVortex:


That looks wayyyy to extratropical in my opinion.


tropical or not, the Northeast doesn't need it..
Member Since: August 19, 2006 Posts: 13 Comments: 15678
Quoting ncstorm:
and CLEAR!..

and CLEAR!..

I think I got a pulse for the blog doctor..weak but its there..

12z CMC





12z Euro






That looks wayyyy too extratropical in my opinion.
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Quoting LargoFl:
Listen up texans..IF you do suceed in leaving the union..the united states is no longer willing to protect you..MEXICO wants the 4 states it lost in the mexican american war..BACK..so..if you leave..its ViVA mexican citizen ship for you all..you think you had it bad in the USA..just wait, same goes for arizona,new mexico and california..what silliness im hearing in here today
It is also funny that some people dont accept our way of democracy anymore simply because there guy did not win. Maybe some states should succeed, and we will be entertained by whatever type of government they chose to supplant the current one.
Member Since: September 27, 2007 Posts: 1 Comments: 21416
Quoting MontanaZephyr:
ECLIPSE COVERAGE LIVE STARTS IN 20 MINUTES

Caution! Clicking on the following link may expose the viewer to observation, scientifically structured observation, and fact, leading potentially to scientific ideation, which may or may not be legal in your state!

Link



huh?
Member Since: February 11, 2012 Posts: 0 Comments: 9731
and CLEAR!..

and CLEAR!..

"I think I got a pulse for the blog doctor..weak but its there.."

12z CMC





12z Euro




Member Since: August 19, 2006 Posts: 13 Comments: 15678
Quoting yoboi:


you were not saying either way about some 1690 storm like i said bring up facts not something that can go either way..... and i agree with the law of physics but you can't prove why things are changing...


My point was that there's no fact based way to compare the same storm in different conditions, since we only have one reality (so far as we experience, anyway -- I'll skip the foray into weird quantum physics things.)

Here's some things we _do_ know:

CO2 (and methane and so on) holds heat differently than other constituents of the atmosphere.

We are adding CO2 to the atmosphere, increasing its proportion.

This will change the way the atmosphere holds heat energy.

That heat energy will be unevenly distributed -- both because the earth is a round spinny thing, and because it is tilted and therefore still has seasonal variation.

Uneven heat changes will change local pressure systems. You cannot change temp gradients without changing pressure gradients. If it's hotter in the arctic, the pressure systems across the entire northern hemisphere "feel" that.

Local pressure systems interact with other pressure systems, and will move in different ways. Circulations will change. The details, that's complicated. They can't not change, though. That's fundamental fluid dynamics.

A hotter atmosphere will also have more ability to hold gaseous water.

The ocean is a great heat sink for the earth, and it is warming considerably (and also unevenly.) This can effect ocean currents, and it has a huge effect on weather systems as a whole -- as anybody on this blog should be plenty aware, given the focus on SST.

I could go on. There is nothing here that's especially debatable. These are facts, all based fundamentally in physical law.
Member Since: Posts: Comments:
177. yoboi
Quoting Neapolitan:
Thanks so much for the spam link. I mean, it's forbidden by the forum rules, but that's okay, I suppose; denialists were never big on reading, so it's understandable you might have missed it. And at any rate, most educated people already know what a witless dimbulb Watts is, and how very marginal he's become now that the realities of our rapidly changing climate have stepped off the pages of Nature to drown and wither and scorch and destroy. Counterprogramming Gore, huh? A one-time small-market TV weather reader is going to take on a Nobel prize-winning world leader, using as support a tired, discredited, and entirely laughable pack of science haters?

I wish him luck. He's going to need it.


just some friendly advice you should hitt the f5 key every now an then on your talking points.....
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Total eclipse coverage starting

Link

First contact on one of the streams
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Quoting AussieStorm:

Who paid for the new Levee around NOLA? A new seawall for NY Harbor will come from the same place.


This was done by the Army Corps of Engineers and to date, they have no input in New York. A New York seawall will likely still need federal dollars but don't see where that is coming from in this economic climate.
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Marine Weather Discussion

Excerpt:

LOOKING AHEAD TO THE WEEKEND...GLOBAL MODELS ARE IN CLOSE AGREEMENT SHOWING AN NEGATIVELY TILTED MID TO UPPER TROUGH PUSHING INTO THE SE UNITED STATES BY FRI. THE ECMWF IS TRENDING IN BETTER AGREEMENT WITH THE UKMET INDICATING A CUT OFF LOW FORMING OVER GEORGIA BY SAT...WITH THE GFS REMAINING SOMEWHAT WEAKER. THE UKMET FORMS A SURFACE LOW OFF NE FLORIDA FRI INTO SAT. FORECAST FOLLOWS MORE CONSERVATIVE GFS SOLUTION FOR NOW BUT GIVEN THE SLIGHT NEGATIVE TILT TO THE SUPPORTING UPPER TROUGH THIS MAY BE ADJUSTED IN TIME. AT ANY RATE...ALL SOLUTIONS SHOW ONLY MODERATE WINDS FRI AND SAT.
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Member Since: Posts: Comments:
Quoting LurkyMcLurkerson:


Pretty pics. When I was a kid, and I saw stuff "caught" on the peaks like that from the valley I lived in -- usually coastal fog, where I was at the time, but similar visual effect -- I used to make believe it was a gigantic tsunami-type wave about to smash into my town and wash us all away.

Yeah, I was a weird kid. But you can even make the tops of the mountains into sea foam, if you have a kid imagination.


Nothing weird about that. When I was growing up in Ohio I would frequently pretend that the massive storm clouds on the horizon were mountains. When I grew up I moved to Colorado because all my pretending was starting to weird people out.

I guess the cloud that's right ON the mountains (in my post #157) is considered a "cap cloud", while the cloud floating up above the divide would probably be considered a "rotor cloud." I believe they're all considered different types of "mountain wave" clouds, but someone please correct me if I'm wrong.



We had some great lenticular clouds last night, but they haven't reformed yet this morning.
Member Since: March 26, 2006 Posts: 44 Comments: 1520
170. yoboi
Quoting Neapolitan:
Thanks so much for the spam link. I mean, it's forbidden by the forum rules, but that's okay, I suppose; denialists were never big on reading, so it's understandable you might have missed it. And at any rate, most educated people already know what a witless dimbulb Watts is, and how very marginal he's become now that the realities of our rapidly changing climate have stepped off the pages of Nature to drown and wither and scorch and destroy. Counterprogramming Gore, huh? A one-time small-market TV weather reader is going to take on a Nobel prize-winning world leader, using as support a tired, discredited, and entirely laughable pack of science haters?

I wish him luck. He's going to need it.


who is the nobel prize winning world leader??? and did this leader lead with facts or bs???
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Listen up texans..IF you do suceed in leaving the union..the united states is no longer willing to protect you..MEXICO wants the 4 states it lost in the mexican american war..BACK..so..if you leave..its ViVA mexican citizen ship for you all..you think you had it bad in the USA..just wait, same goes for arizona,new mexico and california..what silliness im hearing in here today
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If it has never been this warm during the existence of Homosapiens/People can we then say ...never.
Or do we need to say, never, when it mattered.
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So the morning in Australia on the 14th is the afternoon of the 13th here on the US East Coast. Eclipse should be sooo cool. I wonder if we will see the CME.
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166. yoboi
Quoting LurkyMcLurkerson:


Ha! There aren't actually any what ifs in my post, but whatever.

You just want facts you like better. Human tendency. Understandable and yet rather problematic, when it comes to ignoring the facts you'd rather not see until they smack you in the face.

I can only wish that the folks refusing to see the rather unfortunate facts here were the only ones going to get the face-smacking on the other end.

Not much point in "debate." It's not really a matter of conflicting opinions, at least at this level. What any of us "think" makes about zero difference to the laws of physics here.


you were not saying either way about some 1690 storm like i said bring up facts not something that can go either way..... and i agree with the law of physics but you can't prove why things are changing...
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Quoting MrMixon:

Oh, and check out these webcam shots of the mountain wave cloud set up over the Continental Divide today:


Pretty pics. When I was a kid, and I saw stuff "caught" on the peaks like that from the valley I lived in -- usually coastal fog, where I was at the time, but similar visual effect -- I used to make believe it was a gigantic tsunami-type wave about to smash into my town and wash us all away.

Yeah, I was a weird kid. But you can even make the tops of the mountains into sea foam, if you have a kid imagination.
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164. etxwx
Quoting MontanaZephyr:


Interesting. I don't know that I now trust factlink or the professor it quotes.... there is so much disinformation out there these days. I don't live in Texas, nor anywhere near it, and would prefer to avoid it, for the record.

Apparently, a helluva lot of Texans believe it, though, including its governor. Contrarians are likely to perceived as carpetbaggers of some stripe or other.


How about the Texas State Library? Perhaps they might be trustworthy...information here: Texas Annexation
Summary quote: "In fact, Texas received no special terms in its admission to the Union. Once Texas had agreed to join the Union, she never had the legal option of leaving, either before or after the Civil War."

And on the multiple state question, the answer is here: Can Texas divide itself into multiple states?
Summary quote: "Although in theory Texas could still be divided into multiple states, any possibility of carving additional states from Texas ended when the Civil War settled the question of slavery once and for all."
Also from Article IV Section 3 US Constitution.
New states may be admitted by the Congress into this union; but no new states shall be formed or erected within the jurisdiction of any other state; nor any state be formed by the junction of two or more states, or parts of states, without the consent of the legislatures of the states concerned as well as of the Congress.

Sorry for the off topic post, but as a Texan, I hope to put this part of the discussion to rest.
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WINTER WEATHER UPDATE
__________________________

Adak major storm...tropical storm force with hurricane gusts reported
That was yesterday's 6.4 quake south of AK/CAN border


as always click on the pic for a better quality

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Quoting Ossqss:


The timeframe is in a state of flux to suit the line of propaganda of the day.

If any of you folks are interested in viewing science that this site will never provide you, have a peek at this unprecedented event taking place tomorrow.

These folks are not afraid to debate climate science based on facts, observations, and the inability of the climate models to even model today's climate in retrospect.

Climate models are the root source of virtually everything that is claimed as CAGW caused, and yet the models can't even remotely reproduce today's climate.


Counter programming to Al Gore’s ‘Dirty Weather Report’ will be on WUWT-TV Live starting Wednesday Nov. 14 at 8PM EST

Thanks so much for the spam link. I mean, it's forbidden by the forum rules, but that's okay, I suppose; denialists were never big on reading, so it's understandable you might have missed it. And at any rate, most educated people already know what a witless dimbulb Watts is, and how very marginal he's become now that the realities of our rapidly changing climate have stepped off the pages of Nature to drown and wither and scorch and destroy. Counterprogramming Gore, huh? A one-time small-market TV weather reader is going to take on a Nobel prize-winning world leader, using as support a tired, discredited, and entirely laughable pack of science haters?

I wish him luck. He's going to need it.
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140,

Soooooo you are saying the oceans have never been higher?

The global temperature has never been higher?

The ice never melted before, let alone the new high Antarctic Ice extent record set this year that does not get discussed on this site.

Even though the global temperature has not gone up in 16 years as documented recently that does not count?

And CO2 has a linear relationship to temperature and all feedbacks and forcings are positive to temperature rise?

I don't have time to address your other undocumented generalizations.

Your reference to weather extremes are addressed here.

Where are the trending extreme weather events?

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Jeff co-founded the Weather Underground in 1995 while working on his Ph.D. He flew with the NOAA Hurricane Hunters from 1986-1990.

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