The new hottest place on Earth: Death Valley, California

By: Dr. Jeff Masters , 1:18 PM GMT on September 13, 2012

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As any weather aficionado can avow, Earth's most iconic weather record has long been the legendary all-time hottest temperature of 58°C (136.4°F) measured 90 years ago today at El Azizia, Libya on September 13, 1922. One hundred thirty six degrees! It's difficult to comprehend that heat like that could exist on our planet. For 90 years, no place on Earth has come close to beating the unbelievable 136 degree reading from Al Azizia, and for good reason--the record is simply not believable. But Earth's mightiest weather record has been officially cast down. Today, the official arbiter of Earth's weather records, the World Meteorological Organization (WMO), announced that the all-time heat record held for exactly 90 years by El Azizia in Libya "is invalid because of an error in recording the temperature." The WMO committee found five major problems with the measurement. Most seriously, the temperature was measured in a paved courtyard over a black, asphalt-like material by a new and inexperienced observer, not trained in the use of an unsuitable replacement instrument that could be easily misread. The observer improperly recorded the observation, which was consequently in error by about 7°C (12.6°F.) The new official highest hottest place on the planet is now Death Valley, California. A remarkable high temperature of 56.7°C (134°F) was measured there on 10 July 1913, at Greenland Ranch.


Figure 1. The trading post at Al Azizia, Libya in 1923. The photo was taken from the Italian military fort located on a small hill just south of the trading post. It was at this fort that the temperature of 58°C (136.4°F) was observed on Sept. 13, 1922 (used with permission from the family of Gen. Enrico Pezzi).

The story behind the overturning of Earth's most hallowed weather record
Today's announcement is the culmination of a 3-year research effort begun by wunderground weather historian, Christopher C. Burt. His blog post today, World Heat Record Overturned--A Personal Account, provides a fascinating detective story on how the record came to be cast down--and how the Libyan revolution of 2012 almost prevented this from happening.


Figure 2. The new official hottest place on the planet: Death Valley, California. Wide open spaces, infinite views, intensely salty water, mind-boggling heat. What's not to love about this place? Image credit: Wunderphotographer SonomaCountyRAF.

Dead Heat: The Video
Don't miss the 25-minute wunderground video, Dead Heat, a detective story on how the El Azizia record was overturned.

Atlantic tropical update
Tropical Storm Nadine is recurving to the northwest and north well east of the Lesser Antilles Islands, on a track that would likely keep this storm far out at sea away from any land areas. However, Nadine may eventually threaten the Azores Islands or Newfoundland; the models are divided on how the steering currents will evolve next week, and we cannot be sure which way Nadine will go during the middle of next week.

The models predict that a trough of low pressure off the U.S. East Coast may serve as the focus for development of a non-tropical low pressure system on Sunday or Monday, but this low will likely form too far to the north to become a tropical storm. The GFS model has been predicting a tropical wave coming off the coast of Africa may develop next week, but has not been consistent with the timing or location of the development.

In the Western Pacific, Super Typhoon Sanba is an impressive top-end Category 4 storm with 155 mph winds, and is headed north-northwest towards a possible landfall in Korea early next week.

Given the importance of the new world record all-time high temperature, I'll leave this post up until Saturday afternoon, when I'll post an update on the tropics.

Jeff Masters

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When in Rome.....

Did anyone see the picture of starving polar bears in the Arctic (what's left of the ice) in yesterday's CNN?

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Quoting 954FtLCane:
We need to make less children so the world doesn't explode. If we don't then eventually something will happen to humanity that will eradicate a large portion of the population. Usually nature takes care of this but this time it very well may be AGW which will take care of it for us. I guess in an indirect way it is nature taking care of this.... human nature that is.
Often people respond to the threat posed by AGW by claiming that mankind will adapt. What they fail to comprehend is that mass die-offs are themselves just a more extreme form of adaptation. The earth doesn't much care whether we're here or not; if we succeed in doing away with ourselves, we'll be just another in a millions-long list of species that have flared into existence, burnt brightly for awhile, then sputtered out.
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Quoting PalmBeachWeather:
954..I agrre with what you are saying, but i think the wording wasn't spot on......Maybe the words are "birth control" but the illiterate 3rd world countries have a hard time understanding that


Gotcha, I read it and said..."what?".... thanks. Yes burf control.
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Quoting MNhockeymama:


Part of the issue regarding fossil fuels is that government is trying to force the issue - like the ethanol requirements: because of the drought, corn production is way down this year, which historically would have caused issues on the world food market as it is, but with the ethanol boom, about 1/2 the corn produced this year will be turned into fuel. (Did you know that it takes, on average, a gallon of gas to produce a gallon of ethanol? That's working well.) What kind of policy requires citizens to burn FOOD for Fuel? It makes little sense.

Ethanol is not for CO2. I suspect it increases CO2 emissions. Ethanol is for other types of pollution. Wikipedia:

"Oxygenate blending adds oxygen-bearing compounds such as MTBE, ETBE and ethanol. The presence of these oxygenates reduces the amount of carbon monoxide and unburned fuel in the exhaust gas. In many areas throughout the US, oxygenate blending is mandated by EPA regulations to reduce smog and other airborne pollutants. For example, in Southern California, fuel must contain 2% oxygen by weight, resulting in a mixture of 5.6% ethanol in gasoline. The resulting fuel is often known as reformulated gasoline (RFG) or oxygenated gasoline, or in the case of California, California reformulated gasoline. The federal requirement that RFG contain oxygen was dropped on 6 May 2006 because the industry had developed VOC-controlled RFG that did not need additional oxygen.[14]

"MTBE use is being phased out in some states due to issues with contamination of ground water. In some places, such as California, it is already banned. Ethanol and, to a lesser extent, the ethanol-derived ETBE are common replacements."
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Quoting 954FtLCane:
We need to make less children so the world doesn't explode. If we don't then eventually something will happen to humanity that will eradicate a large portion of the population. Usually nature takes care of this but this time it very well may be AGW which will take care of it for us. I guess in an indirect way it is nature taking care of this.... human nature that is.
954..I agrre with what you are saying, but i think the wording wasn't spot on......Maybe the words are "birth control" but the illiterate 3rd world countries have a hard time understanding that
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Quoting bappit:

I like this post, too.


Quoting hydrus:
Hello Nea..The pendulum is swinging over in regards to the belief that global warming is real, albeit slowly. The thing that gets me the most is that there are people that still believe that it is some fantasy invented by the left to control governmental issues...What more then what is already happening does it take to convince these idiots that the Earth is not only warming, but doing so at an alarming rate. My conclusion is that they will put there interests first regardless of the scientifically proven facts until they can get everything they want for as long as possible, then say o.k. your right. By then they will have profited as much as they could under the circumstances knowing they lied to satisfy there agenda.

Name calling prevails.... so sad a discussion turns into exactely what it always does...
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We some sort of birth control so the world doesn't explode. If we don't then eventually something will happen to humanity that will eradicate a large portion of the population. Usually nature takes care of this but this time it very well may be AGW which will take care of it for us. I guess in an indirect way it is nature taking care of this.... human nature that is.
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I don't want the government getting evolved in how I should contribute to reducing GW by taking some of my freedoms away..I read a magazine about a year ago about how some nuts were proposing what the government should do.I'm all about protecting the environment but I don't want some of my freedoms taken away in the process...Such as what car I should be driving...what time lights should be out in my house...and there was much more..Like how much paper and tissue should be used in my house.Also going on a vegetarian diet if possible..
Member Since: August 14, 2010 Posts: 10 Comments: 17831
Quoting kwgirl:
That is what is wrong with this world and with mankind. Too many people want the status quo to not change at all. Well change is good. If you read your comment back, you will see how selfish you sound. I agree, people don't like change. They aren't going to take away your SUV overnight. In fact the idea is to get the alternate fuels and transports designed and manufactured so we can get away from fossil fuels. If and when that happens your children will be grown and out of the house and you won't need that SUV. Hopefully there will be a world left so you can see your grandchildren.
kw......I see my grandchildren now and I hope for the best for them... "And put up a parking lot"
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Quoting bappit:

Hmmmm, I didn't take you for a social darwinist. OMG. jk

The amount of CO2 put in the air is staggering. Respiration contributes a tiny fraction. Burning one gallon of gasoline creates almost twenty pounds of CO2. Making concrete creates a lot of CO2, also, which surprised me.


Part of the issue regarding fossil fuels is that government is trying to force the issue - like the ethanol requirements: because of the drought, corn production is way down this year, which historically would have caused issues on the world food market as it is, but with the ethanol boom, about 1/2 the corn produced this year will be turned into fuel. (Did you know that it takes, on average, a gallon of gas to produce a gallon of ethanol? That's working well.) What kind of policy requires citizens to burn FOOD for Fuel? It makes little sense. We will be seeing the worldwide reverberations from this policy soon - the riots happening in the MidEast will be joined with the suffering of people starving in countries that rely upon American corn, etc. due to the policies instituted by our government. Makes me wonder if the policies aren't in some way a backhanded way to fight the population boom. There are some in the administration who have been big on population control - John Holdren and Cass Sunstein come to mind - who knows? Although, in the US, we have just crossed the line where our birth rate does not keep up with the "replacement rate" - we are becoming very much like Europe in that way.
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Quoting MNhockeymama:
First: Thanks for the updates on the "blob" in the GOM - very appreciated!



No one is deriding the "good faith" of anyone - at least, I'm not. However, the "good faith" of which you speak becomes an issue when you have governments that are using the science of AGW to make policies that trample on the freedoms of their citizens. Saving the planet is one thing; insisting that I must live in high-density housing and try to find a way to fit my four kids, two dogs, 1 large hockey bag and three swim bags into a Smart car because my SUV uses fossil fuel and has been deemed as "evil" by those with "good faith" directly infringes upon my "Pursuit of Happiness" which is a basic right through our Constitution. Furthermore, policy-makers who choose to enforce regulations put forth by an international organization (i.e. the UN)filled with people who have not been elected by the people of this country and therefore do not have any right to tell American citizens how to live their lives directly threaten the sovereignty of the USA. These policies include the proposed universal TAX that would take money from American citizens, give it to the World Bank to be distributed to citizens (or more likely, corrupt governments - that money being sent to Egypt is working out real well right now, isn't it?) of other countries - under the guise of "The USA is successful and wealthy and uses fossil fuels, therefore we must punish those American citizens so we will tax them and then send the money to poorer countries because the evil Americans are destroying the environment." Really? What about China, India and other up and coming powers? They do not follow the Kyoto Protocol and yet they're using fossil fuels and do not give a rip about the environment - why are we not doing the same to them? Because it is politically & economically driving at its core and truly more about bringing the USA and our success down to the level of the less affluent, less successful countries and not about saving the environment.

I am not deriding or dismissing he average person who truly believes in AGW and really believes that we need to do everything we can to help the environment and practices what they preach. However, please remember when you allow "good faith" policies and regulations remove the freedoms and rights of others, it won't be long until those freedoms and rights you hold dear will also be gone, taken away by the same people you applauded when they stole from the people you called "skeptics".

BTW: how's that $4+/gal gas workin' for ya? That Smart car is probably working out really well, right? Just wait til the rest of the coal-fired electrical plants are shut down - how will you charge your car during the rolling brown/black outs that will happen when the wind isn't blowing those turbines?
That is what is wrong with this world and with mankind. Too many people want the status quo to not change at all. Well change is good. If you read your comment back, you will see how selfish you sound. I agree, people don't like change. They aren't going to take away your SUV overnight. In fact the idea is to get the alternate fuels and transports designed and manufactured so we can get away from fossil fuels. If and when that happens your children will be grown and out of the house and you won't need that SUV. Hopefully there will be a world left so you can see your grandchildren.
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Quoting bappit:

Personally I don't see that the world's record high temperature is all that important despite what the Doc says.
Perhaps not important to all, but definitely of enough interest to spur decades of investigation, get millions of hits on Google, and garner dozens of worldwide news headlines yesterday and today.

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@ LargoFL 860:

I occasionally like quite times like this. Times when bloggers start touching the subjects of history, social science and philosophy. And times when bloggers who convey their ideas, fears, and doubts are respectfully replied with posts that will leave you with points to ponder. It feels like we truly communicating with each other.
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Quoting hydrus:
Hello Nea..The pendulum is swinging over in regards to the belief that global warming is real, albeit slowly. The thing that gets me the most is that there are people that still believe that it is some fantasy invented by the left to control governmental issues...What more then what is already happening does it take to convince these idiots that the Earth is not only warming, but doing so at an alarming rate. My conclusion is that they will put there interests first regardless of the scientifically proven facts until they can get everything they want for as long as possible, then say o.k. your right. By then they will have profited as much as they could under the circumstances knowing they lied to satisfy there agenda.

I like this post, too.
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Quoting kwgirl:
I agree that the climate change is not wholely man made but man's contribution is causing an acceleration of the change. In doing this, life on earth does not have the time to evolve to the change. I am one who thinks we should do something about man's contribution but I am doubtful it will help. I think we have already reached the tipping point. But I thought that when as a teenager I watched that river burning and the smog in many large cities. I never thought our efforts to clean up pollution would work. And look, it did. So a concerted effort to convert to truly clean energy and do away with a lot of the fossil fuels would probably help a great deal. It would be even better if we could replant the forests and stop the clearing of land. With the explosion of population in this world, the need for cleared land grows. So will we ever get together as a global community and do the things we need to do to stop our contribution to this climate change. No way. But I am a pessimist. I hope the people of the world surprise me.
About 7 years ago me and the local community got together and protested that they not put another condo in the neighborhood.We also planted some new trees and cleaned up the trash off the streets.There is also a local market up the streets that sell locally grown fruit and vegetables.
Member Since: August 14, 2010 Posts: 10 Comments: 17831
Quoting MNhockeymama:


Bold=name calling. Nice. Thanks for demonstrating exactly what I was talking about in one of my earlier posts.

(Btw, have you tried to put 4 kids in a small car? ever? and do you generally get 60" of snow during an average winter? 4 wheel drive comes in handy. & Do you think I like paying tons of money for gas? Very few cars/minivans that can seat 6-7 passengers get decent fuel economy and the ones that do, I can't afford.)

I like this post.
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879. MahFL
Quoting StormDrain:
Death Valley, by the blog title and photo caption, new official hottest place on the planet.

...Yet how do mets/climatologists determine the hottest place on Earth?


It's the place where the highest ever temperature was recorded on one day, that's it.
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Quoting MNhockeymama:
First: Thanks for the updates on the "blob" in the GOM - very appreciated!



No one is deriding the "good faith" of anyone - at least, I'm not. However, the "good faith" of which you speak becomes an issue when you have governments that are using the science of AGW to make policies that trample on the freedoms of their citizens. Saving the planet is one thing; insisting that I must live in high-density housing and try to find a way to fit my four kids, two dogs, 1 large hockey bag and three swim bags into a Smart car because my SUV uses fossil fuel and has been deemed as "evil" by those with "good faith" directly infringes upon my "Pursuit of Happiness" which is a basic right through our Constitution. Furthermore, policy-makers who choose to enforce regulations put forth by an international organization (i.e. the UN)filled with people who have not been elected by the people of this country and therefore do not have any right to tell American citizens how to live their lives directly threaten the sovereignty of the USA. These policies include the proposed universal TAX that would take money from American citizens, give it to the World Bank to be distributed to citizens (or more likely, corrupt governments - that money being sent to Egypt is working out real well right now, isn't it?) of other countries - under the guise of "The USA is successful and wealthy and uses fossil fuels, therefore we must punish those American citizens so we will tax them and then send the money to poorer countries because the evil Americans are destroying the environment." Really? What about China, India and other up and coming powers? They do not follow the Kyoto Protocol and yet they're using fossil fuels and do not give a rip about the environment - why are we not doing the same to them? Because it is politically & economically driving at its core and truly more about bringing the USA and our success down to the level of the less affluent, less successful countries and not about saving the environment.

I am not deriding or dismissing he average person who truly believes in AGW and really believes that we need to do everything we can to help the environment and practices what they preach. However, please remember when you allow "good faith" policies and regulations remove the freedoms and rights of others, it won't be long until those freedoms and rights you hold dear will also be gone, taken away by the same people you applauded when they stole from the people you called "skeptics".

BTW: how's that $4+/gal gas workin' for ya? That Smart car is probably working out really well, right? Just wait til the rest of the coal-fired electrical plants are shut down - how will you charge your car during the rolling brown/black outs that will happen when the wind isn't blowing those turbines?
It's unwise to approach science from a primarily political perspective, as that sometimes often usually always leads to inadvertent misunderstandings and misinterpretations of scientific findings. Ideological blinders make for difficult navigation...

There are scientists all around the world of many different political persuasions who have looked at the overwhelming evidence and come to the inescapable conclusions that a) the world is rapidly warming, b) CO2 is the culprit, and c) that CO2 is from us. To claim that all those scientists everywhere are engaged in a worldwide conspiracy merely to deprive Americans of their "freedoms" is absurd beyond almost all reasoning, and, frankly, pretty darned paranoid.

Living where you wish and living as you like is a freedom. Selfishly destroying the environment--and lying about doing so--isn't.
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Quoting MNhockeymama:


Bold=name calling. Nice. Thanks for demonstrating exactly what I was talking about in one of my earlier posts.

(Btw, have you tried to put 4 kids in a small car? ever? and do you generally get 60" of snow during an average winter? 4 wheel drive comes in handy. & Do you think I like paying tons of money for gas? Very few cars/minivans that can seat 6-7 passengers get decent fuel economy and the ones that do, I can't afford.)


you make your choices what you drive. If you have 4 children and need to drive a bigger vehicle then you will pay the price. Pretty simple, you are making a bigger footprint than most. This is the only way eventually we will ween ourselves off of these destructive emissions is by making it too expensive for people to place them into the air.
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Quoting TomballTXPride:

If #5 is Roddy White in the end zone after a TD, then #5 it is. Love it!!


Yeah its Roddy White, my favorite player, he stuck the landing perfectly too. :)

So far its 2 votes for 5 and 1 vote for 6
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Quoting washingtonian115:
I don't believe GW is purely man made.The earth goes through warm and cool cycles before and those same "scientist" know that.If anyway wants to respond in a aggressive way go ahead as I will ignore you..
I agree that the climate change is not wholely man made but man's contribution is causing an acceleration of the change. In doing this, life on earth does not have the time to evolve to the change. I am one who thinks we should do something about man's contribution but I am doubtful it will help. I think we have already reached the tipping point. But I thought that when as a teenager I watched that river burning and the smog in many large cities. I never thought our efforts to clean up pollution would work. And look, it did. So a concerted effort to convert to truly clean energy and do away with a lot of the fossil fuels would probably help a great deal. It would be even better if we could replant the forests and stop the clearing of land. With the explosion of population in this world, the need for cleared land grows. So will we ever get together as a global community and do the things we need to do to stop our contribution to this climate change. No way. But I am a pessimist. I hope the people of the world surprise me.
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Quoting AussieStorm:
Foam's up as surfers brave massive murky-brown waves



DIE HARD surfers dodged logs and debris to ride these waves as floodwater deluge hit the coast of New Zealand.

Hardcore surfers are known to travel far and wide in their search for the perfect wave, braving often choppy and dangerous conditions others wouldn't dream of dipping a toe into.

These waves, however, are a different matter altogether.

Three surfers jumped at the chance to ride the torrential swell in Karitane on the south island of New Zealand. Photographer Chris Garden, 30, spotted the unusual sight as he drove along the coastline



The murky-coloured waves were the result of overflowing flood-waters and kicked up a dramatic spray when they broke.

The foam stretched for 100m along the shore and was almost 30m deep in some places.

Garden, who was watching the action from a cliff, told the Daily Mail: "There was a big swell churning up the foam.
We had had a lot of flooding and so flood water had been coming out into the sea. It was all getting mixed up with the sea water and there were also logs floating out through the waves.



"The water is really cold at this time of year too, which doesn't make for very enjoyable surfing conditions. I think the surfers had fun but you wouldn't catch me out in it."

Garden, from nearby Dunedin, added: "In 10 years photographing surfers I have never seen anything like it before. I was driving along looking for some good waves when I came across it."

The surfers rode the waves for about 20 minutes before heading back to shore. He said some were nearly 3m high and the force of the waves washed all the foam onto the shore.

Garden said: “The waves were washing all the foam on to the shore.

"Once there, it all gradually disintegrated. This scene wasn't there very long and I was lucky to catch it."


That is just plain ole' Nasty...
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Quoting TomballTXPride:
You are just going around and around in circles with this topic. Everyone has their view on AGW, and one's view is likely not going to change on the subject. Not in here anyway where all I see is constant blaming on one element (fossil fuel burning) when it's likely a combination of many different reasons and likely somewhere in the middle in regard's to human culpability.

On to Sanba. Eye has disappeared, as likely an EWRC is underway.


You seem to be a frequent poster on the topic. Maybe you should cut back on your posts.

Since you bring it up, we know that the CO2 increase is from fossil fuels since the ratio of C14 is decreasing. C14 is a radioactive isotope of carbon. The carbon from fossil fuels is low in C14.
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...........orlando is getting the rains today...anyone hear from stormtracker2k?..must be busy with the new baby huh
Member Since: August 6, 2011 Posts: 4 Comments: 42265

This is where I got my numbers.
http://nsidc.org/arcticseaicenews/
Addmittedly, volume is a more accurate indicator of loss than area, but in terms of albido and reflecting solar energy that is now absorbed by the exposed arctic ocean, area works just fine.
(Arctic sea ice usually reaches its minimum area on the 2nd week of September)

This change isn't waiting for your grandchildren or the united nations.

Switching to methane that is 4 time more harmful than CO2 or puppy breath (would that make methane dinosaur farts?) is not a move in the improving things catagory.
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Quoting GeorgiaStormz:
Im trying to pick a new avatar guys, can you tell me which one you like the best?6-thumb.jpg" style="max-width: 501px; ">

">



These are my finalists from about 100 pictures, and im leaning towards nubmers 3-8


I vote for #6
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Quoting GeorgiaStormz:
Im trying to pick a new avatar guys, can you tell me which one you like the best?

1. Eye of Typhoon Sanba vis:


2. Typhoon Sanba IR loop 1


3. Typhoon Sanba IR loop 2


4. The Bomb


5. Atlanta Falcons Backflip


6. Olympic Torch


7. Typhoon Sanba Truecolor Vis


8 .Olympic Stadium Fireworks 1


9. Olympic Stadium Fireworks 2


10. Olympic Stadium Fireworks 3




These are my finalists from about 100 pictures, and im leaning towards nubmers 3-8
..5 would be good for you
Member Since: August 6, 2011 Posts: 4 Comments: 42265
Quoting MNhockeymama:


Bold=name calling. Nice. Thanks for demonstrating exactly what I was talking about in one of my earlier posts.

(Btw, have you tried to put 4 kids in a small car? ever? and do you generally get 60" of snow during an average winter? 4 wheel drive comes in handy. & Do you think I like paying tons of money for gas? Very few cars/minivans that can seat 6-7 passengers get decent fuel economy and the ones that do, I can't afford.)
Exactly.Some people get trucks for their height as well.My brother is 6 4" and he can not fit into a tiny car so he has no choice but to get a truck.Not only that trucks are used for people's work..such as farming construction ect...
Member Since: August 14, 2010 Posts: 10 Comments: 17831
Im trying to pick a new avatar guys, can you tell me which one you like the best?

1. Eye of Typhoon Sanba vis:


2. Typhoon Sanba IR loop 1


3. Typhoon Sanba IR loop 2


4. The Bomb


5. Atlanta Falcons Backflip


6. Olympic Torch


7. Typhoon Sanba Truecolor Vis


8 .Olympic Stadium Fireworks 1


9. Olympic Stadium Fireworks 2


10. Olympic Stadium Fireworks 3




These are my finalists from about 100 pictures, and im leaning towards nubmers 3-8
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Member Since: August 6, 2011 Posts: 4 Comments: 42265
We have been looking at the Blobs around Florida and the wave (moving way too fast) in the Central Atlantic with no model support.

Meanwhile, the Blob down in the SW Caribbean about to come ashore in Costa Rica-Nicaragua around 12N-83W has been trying to get a nice groove on this morning. Don't know that it will have time to spin up because of the land interaction (Not worth noting for Atlantic development) but it could become a seed for E-Pac later on down the road......Again, no previous model support on this one.

Link

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Quoting Chicklit:

I went from a V8 to a V4.
While I miss the ability to speed up I am very happy with the cost of the are and mileage it gets at average 36-38 mph (and it is not a hybrid).
It's a good thing to I live in the city as transportation is easy to come by.Most of the buses advertise that they're running on clean fuel.
Member Since: August 14, 2010 Posts: 10 Comments: 17831
Quoting bappit:

But you survived. :)

Personally I don't see that the world's record high temperature is all that important despite what the Doc says. The day in and day out temps are what matter. Yep, people will talk about global warming. You know why? Because it affects everyone, everywhere.

Will we do anything about it? I'm afraid not. We have to keep the economy growing. Then again, the world economy can't grow forever. Just a matter of time.
its stramge, but if you look back at civilizations down thru the ages, most empires last what 3-4-500 years then collapse..why is that?...is it because the average working person, in those empires have said..enough is enough, we cant live on what we make and proceed to overthrow those in power?..all empires that werent invaded by outsiders..seem to collapse upon themselves..in school some guys were into sports..some into math etc..I..loved human history, where we came from, where we might be headed..and I am wondering...our american society..our empire...is what..400 years old...heading towards 500....will we..collapse upon ourselves..this time from prices and wages and the working class person who cannot make ends meet?......the young ones here today..might see the answer in the future....interesting thought when you study civilization and history..in which we..are a part of...im done with this now..thanks for partaking in the discussion and we got over 800 posts..thats cool...back to weather ok..again..TY
Member Since: August 6, 2011 Posts: 4 Comments: 42265
Quoting aspectre:
Oh good grief, an SUV is a gas-hog cuz it ain't designed for transportation. It's designed so that wimps can pretend to be MadMax RoadWarriors.
'bout like owning a Veyron. The world highest speed limit is 140km/h (87mph). Buying a 400km/h vehicle merely proves that one is a complete&utter IDIOT and can afford the consequences.


Bold=name calling. Nice. Thanks for demonstrating exactly what I was talking about in one of my earlier posts.

(Btw, have you tried to put 4 kids in a small car? ever? and do you generally get 60" of snow during an average winter? 4 wheel drive comes in handy. & Do you think I like paying tons of money for gas? Very few cars/minivans that can seat 6-7 passengers get decent fuel economy and the ones that do, I can't afford.)
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Quoting katadman:
Interesting that posts 798 & 799 both cited economic gain as the motivation behind the raging debate, but from opposite sides.
Yes, it is interesting. But only one side has empirical evidence...
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Quoting MNhockeymama:


:) Don't we need puppy breath in order to grow the food we eat? Don't we all breathe out Co2? Maybe AGW is just another form of natural selection?

Hmmmm, I didn't take you for a social darwinist. OMG. jk

The amount of CO2 put in the air is staggering. Respiration contributes a tiny fraction. Burning one gallon of gasoline creates almost twenty pounds of CO2. Making concrete creates a lot of CO2, also, which surprised me.
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Quoting washingtonian115:
I could never understand why people would buy/waste their money on cars like that that go up to 200mph?.It's stupidity really.I have a truck only because I have a large family and I don't see us all fitting in a hybrid.I don't drive it on week days unless necessary.I mostly drive it around on weekends when I have errands to do.

I went from a V8 to a V4.
While I miss the quick acceleration am very happy with the cost of the car and mileage it gets an average 36-38 mph (and it is not a hybrid).
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Quoting aspectre:
Oh good grief, your SUV is a gas-hog cuz it ain't designed for transportation. It's designed so that wimps can pretend to be MadMax RoadWarriors.
'bout like owning a Veyron. The world highest speed limit is 140km/h (87mph). Buying a 400km/h vehicle merely proves that one can afford to be a complete&utter IDIOT.
I could never understand why people would buy/waste their money on cars like that that go up to 200mph?.It's stupidity really.I have a truck only because I have a large family and I don't see us all fitting in a hybrid.I don't drive it on week days unless necessary.I mostly drive it around on weekends when I have errands to do.
Member Since: August 14, 2010 Posts: 10 Comments: 17831
Quoting atl134:


I have a plan. We just rename carbon dioxide puppy breath. Then we'll no longer have a CO2 problem. We would have a puppy breath problem but that is a much more adorable problem to have.

Don't tell that to one of my neighbors.
I just saw his little dog with its tongue hanging out the side of its mouth and he said he had all its teeth pulled because of "dog breath." Then the idiot complained because he had to pay $750 to get something out of its intestines. I don't want to walk past his house anymore because he makes me so sick. I would like his teeth all pulled out for bad breath!
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Quoting bappit:

My impression is: If people are still able to evacuate, it is not big enough, at least not yet. If it were big enough, a lot of those people would already be dead.


A good way to estimate the impact on the worlds temperature would be to compare it with the eruption of mount Pinatubo in the phillipines. For reflective cooling to have a significant impact, the ejecta must contain large amount of SO2 and the eruption column must be high enough to penetrate the stratosphere. From what I read about the eruption yesterday, impact on the temperature should be neglegible as of now.
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Interesting that posts 798 & 799 both cited economic gain as the motivation behind the raging debate, but from opposite sides.
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Quoting VAbeachhurricanes:
The world is becoming a powderkeg


Worse....
Heck if we keep up at this pace, we'll be in WWIII soon
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can only hope that you are correct that no one alive today will see the worse effects of AGW. I cannot be as certain as you are on this simply because the melting of the Arctic sea ice puts us into uncharted territory. Once we have obtained summers that are ice free, in the Arctic Ocean, we will learn what this truly means for present day life and impacts on our climate. Good, bad or indifferent, the evidence shows that we will soon have an ice free Arctic Ocean in the near few years and not beginning in the next century, as it was originally thought that it would be.............this is a good point made, we are in uncharted waters now,no modern human, was alive in the last interlude between ice ages, so we cannot know for sure what happened the last time all the ice melted, or even IF it ever has, so yes,we are about to learn something new about the earth and climate changes and what happens to US in this change...so we wait to see, and we learn..my good guess is, weather patterns may change, sea levels may indeed rise and coastal cities will have to deal and adapt, heat wise we can surely adapt to the changes, now food crops and whats grown where..That may become a huge problem in the age ahead of us, could be
from global cooling or warming
Member Since: August 6, 2011 Posts: 4 Comments: 42265
Poor Nadine getting the same treatment as Philippe; staying the strongest possible TS and never becoming a hurricane for a long time (though Phil was upgraded to hurricane status in the post-season for a brief period earlier on in his life).
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Oh good grief, an SUV is a gas-hog cuz it ain't designed for transportation. It's designed so that wimps can pretend to be MadMax RoadWarriors.
'bout like owning a Veyron. The world highest speed limit is 140km/h (87mph). Buying a 400km/h vehicle merely proves that one can afford the consequences of being a complete&utter IDIOT.
Member Since: Posts: Comments:

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Jeff co-founded the Weather Underground in 1995 while working on his Ph.D. He flew with the NOAA Hurricane Hunters from 1986-1990.

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