Heartland Institute documents reveal strategy of attacks against climate science

By: Dr. Jeff Masters , 3:15 PM GMT on February 17, 2012

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Documents illegally leaked from the Heartland Institute, one of the most active groups engaged in attacking the science of climate change, provide an unprecedented look into how these groups operate. The story was broken Tuesday by DeSmogBlog, a website dedicated to exposing false claims about climate change science. The documents reveal that donors to Heartland included oil billionaire Charles Koch, and Heartland has spent several million dollars over the past five years to undermine climate science. Tens of thousands of dollars are slated to go this year to well-known climate contrarians S.Fred Singer, Craig Idso, and Anthony Watts of the Watts Up With That? website. Naturally, the leaked documents have lit up the blogosphere, but none of the revelations are particularly surprising. The U.S. has a very successful and well-funded climate change denial industry, primarily funded by fossil fuel companies, that has spent hundreds of millions of dollars over the past few decades on a PR campaign against climate change science. I made a lengthy post on the subject in 2009 called, The Manufactured Doubt industry and the hacked email controversy. I won't say more here, but getenergysmartnow.com has compiled a long list of blogs that have interesting posts on the Heartland Institute affair for those interested in following this story.



Eight books challenging the Manufactured Doubt industry
Important scientific findings should always be challenged with the goal of finding flaws and improving our scientific understanding. But there's nothing a scientist hates more than to see good science attacked and the reputations of good scientists smeared in name of protecting corporate profits or ideology. A number of scientists have fought back against the recent unfounded assaults on climate change science by publishing books calling attention to the Manufactured Doubt industry's tactics and goals. Anyone priding themselves on being a open-minded skeptic of human-caused global warming should challenge their skepticism by reading one of these works. I thought so highly of Unscientific America, Merchants of Doubt, and Climate Coverup, that I donated 50 copies of these books to undergraduates at the University of Michigan last year. Here's a short synopsis of eight books published in the past three years defending climate change science against the attacks of the Manufactured Doubt industry:

Merchants of Doubt: How a Handful of Scientists Obscured the Truth on Issues from Tobacco Smoke to Global Warming, by Naomi Oreskes and Erik Conway. If you're going to read one book on the attacks on climate science, this should probably be the one--Dr. Oreskes, a history professor at UC San Diego, was voted climate change communicator of the year in 2011. A review of Merchants of Doubt and a video of her defending her book against skeptics is at climateprogress.org, my favorite website for staying current on the politics of climate change. From the review: "Make the journey with them, and you’ll see renowned scientists abandon science, you’ll see environmentalism equated with communism, and you’ll discover the connection between the Cold War and climate denial. And for the most part, you’ll be entertained along the way."

Climate Cover-up: The Crusade to Deny Global Warming, by desmogblog.com co-founders James Hoggan and Richard Littlemore. The main author, James Hoggan, owns a Canadian public relations firm, and is intimately familiar with how public relations campaigns work. It's another fascinating and very readable book.

Unscientific America: How Scientific Illiteracy Threatens our Future, by science writer Chris Mooney. He writes a blog focusing on science communication called the intersection. This is a fantastic book, and should be required reading for all college science majors.

Climate Change Denial: Heads in the Sand, by Haydn Washington and John Cook. John Cook writes for one of my favorite climate science blogs, skepticalscience.com, which focuses on debunking false skeptic claims about climate science. The book does a great job debunking all the classic climate change denial arguments.

Doubt is Their Product: How Industry's Assault on Science Threatens Your Health, by George Washington University epidemiologist David Michaels, who now heads the Occupational Health and Safety Administration (OSHA). This meticulously-researched book has just one chapter on climate change, and focuses more on tobacco and hazardous chemicals. About the the tobacco industry's Manufactured Doubt campaigns, Michaels wrote: "the industry understood that the public is in no position to distinguish good science from bad. Create doubt, uncertainty, and confusion. Throw mud at the anti-smoking research under the assumption that some of it is bound to stick. And buy time, lots of it, in the bargain". The title of Michaels' book comes from a 1969 memo from a tobacco company executive: "Doubt is our product since it is the best means of competing with the 'body of fact' that exists in the minds of the general public. It is also the means of establishing a controversy".

The Hockey Stick and the Climate Wars: Dispatches from the Front Lines, by climate scientist Dr. Michael Mann. Dr. Mann is the originator of the much-debated "hockey stick" graph of global temperatures over the past 1,000 years, which looks like a hockey stick due to the sharp increase in temperatures in recent decades. This book just came out last week, and I hope to write a review on it this spring. Dr. Mann is one of the main contributors to my favorite web site for staying current on climate change research, realclimate.org. John Cook of skepticalscience.com wrote a review, calling it "an eye-opening account of the lengths the opponents of climate science will go to in their campaign to slander climate scientists and distract the public from the realities of human caused global warming."

Fool Me Twice: Fighting the Assault on Science in America by Shawn Lawrence Otto. I haven't had a chance to read this one yet, but it looks interesting. A review by Katherine O’Konski of Climate Science Watch called the book "a fascinating look at the status of science in American society."

The Inquisition of Climate Science, by Dr. James Lawrence Powell, a geochemist with a distinguished career as a college teacher, college president, museum director, and author of books on earth science for general audiences. I haven't read it, but John Cook of skepticalscience.com wrote a review, calling it "a must-read for anyone who wishes to understand the full scope of the denial industry and their modern day persecution of climate science."

Have a great weekend, everyone! I'll be taking a few vacation days next week, and wunderground meteorologist Angela Fritz will probably be doing most of the blogging for me during the coming week.

Jeff Masters

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Quoting GeorgiaStormz:
Hey yall.
In some areas of KY which have been receiving rain according to radar already have a good dusting of snow according to spotter video. If only that would come to GA:(
Watching it snow elsewhere depresses me.


same here. but im pretty confident i will have somethin to tromp around in.. :D


Quoting Articuno:


hey articuno were ya been
Member Since: August 4, 2011 Posts: 46 Comments: 4488
Quoting WxGeekVA:
Meanwhile on the 12Z "Dreamland" GFS....


That's my favorite vacation spot.
Member Since: February 11, 2012 Posts: 84 Comments: 8032
Quoting SPLbeater:


ah....why is that


I think its because it gets new data when the 06Z and 18Z GFS use some of the same data from the previous run. I just have found that the 0Z performs the best out of all of the runs.
Member Since: Posts: Comments:
Hey yall.
In some areas of KY which have been receiving rain according to radar already have a good dusting of snow according to spotter video. If only that would come to GA:(
Watching it snow elsewhere depresses me.
Member Since: Posts: Comments:
Member Since: Posts: Comments:
Quoting LargoFl:
i have a problem with this fact you posted, early in GWB's first term, he came on tv and announced he was adding $1.00 to the price of gas, so as to help the oil companies build new refineries, ok, so he did it, it is now 2012..exactly how many NEW refineries were actually built?, you say none in 20 years...what happened??? exactly where did our dollar a gallon go?...oh, they needed new yachts instead?


Citation please.
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The NAM still likes me lol...

but i reckon like ChapelHill said guess we oughta use observations :D
Member Since: August 4, 2011 Posts: 46 Comments: 4488
Quoting LargoFl:
i have a problem with this fact you posted, early in GWB's first term, he came on tv and announced he was adding $1.00 to the price of gas, so as to help the oil companies build new refineries, ok, so he did it, it is now 2012..exactly how many NEW refineries were actually built?, you say none in 20 years...what happened??? exactly where did our dollar a gallon go?...oh, they needed new yachts instead?


I have no idea what happened south of the border... I know we (Canada) have not built any.... and I seem to remember seeing multiple times during the oil spill that you haven't built any either.

Confirmation for the US

"There hasn’t been a new refinery built in the U.S. since 1976, the result of extremely tight environmental restrictions, not-in-my-back-yard community opposition, and the high cost of new construction. Used refineries currently sell for about 30 to 50 percent of the cost of building a new one, so it’s cheaper to buy an old refinery and upgrade it. Or squeeze a little more gasoline out of the refineries you already own."

This is part of the reason you needed the Pipe Line built from Alberta. You don't need refineries if you don't have the product to refine.

It would now appear that the pipeline will be built across Northern Alberta/BC and the raw materials will be shipped to China instead.
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Quoting WxGeekVA:


0Z is generally the best GFS run, although that's just my opinion.


ah....why is that
Member Since: August 4, 2011 Posts: 46 Comments: 4488
Quoting Chapelhill:
IMO, it's time to let the models go, and start watching surface obs. like dewpoints vs temps, radar trends. The cold air is funneling in qiuckly now.

Based on everything I've seen, you fall into the less than 1" section now. That could change if snow bands set up this evening.


yup. snow line is over towards Morganton, NC...long way from me :)
Member Since: August 4, 2011 Posts: 46 Comments: 4488
Quoting SPLbeater:


can you tell me why the midnight run gave me 4 inches, and noon run gave me 0.40? which one more accurate?


0Z is generally the best GFS run, although that's just my opinion.
Member Since: Posts: Comments:
Quoting TropicalAnalystwx13:

Coolwx already has the already snow total...Ok, how about this. Let's just not use Coolwx, and let's use TwisterData, which gives you the actual snow accumulations...Less than an inch..



you take that, because i have my correct numbers.

The 00z GFS run gave me 4.3 inches.
Member Since: August 4, 2011 Posts: 46 Comments: 4488
Quoting SPLbeater:


the GFS givae me 4.3 inches acummulation last 00z run.
IMO, it's time to let the models go, and start watching surface obs. like dewpoints vs temps, radar trends. The cold air is funneling in qiuckly now.

Based on everything I've seen, you fall into the less than 1" section now. That could change if snow bands set up this evening.
Member Since: August 31, 2006 Posts: 0 Comments: 436
Quoting SPLbeater:


in parenthases, (liquid equivalent) which means the snow is measured like rain. so, you said 1 inch of rain usually equals 10 inches of snow, multiply the snow number THERE and get your total.

Coolwx already has the already snow total...Ok, how about this. Let's just not use Coolwx, and let's use TwisterData, which gives you the actual snow accumulations...Less than an inch..

Member Since: July 6, 2010 Posts: 113 Comments: 32802
1016. LargoFl
Quoting Orcasystems:


Its not that unusual... why do you think they want to build a pipeline from Canada to Texas. Its not to sell you Gas... its to sell you unrefined bitumen, so you can refine it into Oil/Gas.. and we will buy some of it back.

Like you guys... we have not built a new refinery in 20 years. Does it make sense to us... no... but it makes sense to the Oil company's. Its like us selling Raw logs to China/Japan... so we can but them back as cheap furniture... its STUPID.
i have a problem with this fact you posted, early in GWB's first term, he came on tv and announced he was adding $1.00 to the price of gas, so as to help the oil companies build new refineries, ok, so he did it, it is now 2012..exactly how many NEW refineries were actually built?, you say none in 20 years...what happened??? exactly where did our dollar a gallon go?...oh, they needed new yachts instead?
Member Since: August 6, 2011 Posts: 4 Comments: 42045
Quoting TropicalAnalystwx13:

Again, no. It gave you less than an inch.





in parenthases, (liquid equivalent) which means the snow is measured like rain. so, you said 1 inch of rain usually equals 10 inches of snow, multiply the snow number THERE and get your total.
Member Since: August 4, 2011 Posts: 46 Comments: 4488
1014. KEEPEROFTHEGATE (Mod)
Quoting nymore:
You may want to look at a CIWS gun such as the Phalanx or Goalkeeper for the speedboats. Iran can shoot their mouth off all day long but they do not want this fight. As far as Iran's subs don't think for one second we already don't have hunter killer subs watching them right now. I am not saying we won't take a few hits but Iran is no match and they know it as does every other nation in the world.


biggest problem here is the iam a bigger bully than you stance
its not going to work
someone is going to break your nose
sooner or later
no one likes a bully and if it takes 5 or 6 others to help
thats what will be done
the biggest problem you have is yet to come
that happens on march the 4th
once in control and he is going to win and be in control
everything will change
then we will be able to do nothing

the chair is against the door
the back is against the wall
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Quoting SPLbeater:


the GFS givae me 4.3 inches acummulation last 00z run.

Again, no. It gave you less than an inch.



Member Since: July 6, 2010 Posts: 113 Comments: 32802
Quoting TropicalAnalystwx13:

It never gave you 4.8 inches of snow...It gave you less than an inch.


the GFS givae me 4.3 inches acummulation last 00z run.
Member Since: August 4, 2011 Posts: 46 Comments: 4488
Quoting SPLbeater:


can you tell me why the midnight run gave me 4 inches, and noon run gave me 0.40? which one more accurate?

It never gave you 4.8 inches of snow...It gave you less than an inch.
Member Since: July 6, 2010 Posts: 113 Comments: 32802
Now I feel bad, that Skypony post the best information on the blog concerning weather and only the weather.She lives by the Dragnet invective" the facts mam nothing but the facts".You go girl and thanks. Hope winter continues for another month at least, sorry Canadian's. Well have a nice holiday weekend. Say out of trouble in the big easy Patrap. But it seems you have all-ready mastered that.
Member Since: August 18, 2008 Posts: 0 Comments: 3113
1009. Skyepony (Mod)
Japan’s nuclear evacuees denied Canadian refuge
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Quoting WxGeekVA:
Meanwhile on the 12Z "Dreamland" GFS....



can you tell me why the midnight run gave me 4 inches, and noon run gave me 0.40? which one more accurate?
Member Since: August 4, 2011 Posts: 46 Comments: 4488
1007. wxmod
Quoting JupiterKen:


There are plenty of not that smart people posting on this blog. One would think that exactly one-half the population would be below average and the other half above. Averages are not hard to understand for those in the upper half.


I was thinking that some people on this blog were paid to be stupid and water down the conversation with trivia and tripe. After all, this IS a sort of a 'fix global warming' blog, and, as the blog title suggests today, there are polluters who don't want this kind of conversation to exist. There's one guy who keeps telling us that he's going to bed, and then he's back in five minutes, or he tells us what he's eating or watching on tv. Is it possible that anyone is that stupid?
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Quoting nymore:
You may want to look at a CIWS gun such as the Phalanx or Goalkeeper for the speedboats. Iran can shoot their mouth off all day long but they do not want this fight. As far as Iran's subs don't think for one second we already don't have hunter killer subs watching them right now. I am not saying we won't take a few hits but Iran is no match and they know it as does every other nation in the world.


I know that.

My post was just assuming the "evil greedy bastards like to try to take everyone else down with them anyway" mentality.

Look at the sort of stuff we saw in Iraq: false surrenders, false SOS, and suicide bombings.

Clearly, no tactic would give them any chance of destroying even one of our battle groups, but if a few bombs get through, our ships are very expensive and our sailors lives too. U.S.S. Cole was heavily damaged by suicide bomb.
Member Since: January 25, 2012 Posts: 33 Comments: 1520
1005. Skyepony (Mod)
Flash flooding in Australia & New-Zealand.

Afghanistan having a cold wave with 3m of snow.

Stay out of the smoke from the landfill fire in Jamaica. It's causing a noticeable increase in severe respiratory problems.

Another side effect of the TX drought is..conditions are ripe for toxic golden algae blooms causing fish kills.
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Well what a coincidence a president running for reelection and a industry that hates him like poison raising the life blood of the economy. What a win/win for the likes of Mitch McConnell/Sarah Palin it's going to be a one term president, country be dammed.See our real interest are super multinational corporations. Our strict constitutional court has determined that corporation are poor little people who need protection.I'm looking for the exact verbiage I'm sure it's there.Thank God Bush didn't eradicate all our Mideast problems.Left an ace in the hole for big oil.Fox will get to the bottom of this or at least the rest of the liberal media will show how 1/2 to 1 percent of the worlds oil supply sets the price for all consumers.Geez I wonder if a hedge with billions of dollars to invest could manipulate the price to some how help their oil investments. Stand by it's going to be a race between the liberal media and fox to uncover this (not ). I've got better things to do, those dam liberals want women to have unfettered access to birth control.When that aspirin worked so well.
Member Since: August 18, 2008 Posts: 0 Comments: 3113
1003. nymore
Quoting RTSplayer:


Well, I was theory crafting about how an Iranian military commander would plan things, given their goals, world view, and morals(or lack thereof).

The speed boats are a problem, if they can get a LOT of them armed with proximity bombs and perhaps rocket launchers. It only takes one or two people per speed boat, and even if you have a manual detonator, the pilots could dive over-board at the last possible moment.

It's harder for the big Naval vessels' guns to lock on to small targets, and it also takes time for helicopters and drones to get airborne to intercept.

So if the Iranians were going to try to attack our fleet, they'd want to distract them either with some rockets from the mainland, or a small detachment of their own Navy. Then have some loyalists or fanatics (Al Qaeda or Taliban or someone) pilot dozens of speed boats on suicide missions to attack the destroyers and carrier. The submarines would try to get in range and let loose some torpedoes during the carnage and then retreat.

This way, by using a "distract and sapper" strategy, they'd maximize their chances of getting some of the suicide bombers or torpedoes through. A conventional "stand-up and fight" strategy clearly has no chance from the Iranian perspective.


The other alternative is they could put proximity bombs on civilian aircraft and try to mob the fleet in a sneak attack. Although almost none of them would get through anyway. The AA of the fleet is just too good for this to work, unless it's done in tandem with a significant distraction to engage all the countermeasures.
You may want to look at a CIWS gun such as the Phalanx or Goalkeeper for the speedboats. Iran can shoot their mouth off all day long but they do not want this fight. As far as Iran's subs don't think for one second we already don't have hunter killer subs watching them right now. I am not saying we won't take a few hits but Iran is no match and they know it as does every other nation in the world.
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1002. Skyepony (Mod)
Quoting MAweatherboy1:
What got into Giovanna? Up to 95 mph...


I suspect the close passage to land.. the drag on the storm that helped tighten it back it. The MIMIC shows it nicely.

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Meanwhile on the 12Z "Dreamland" GFS....

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..
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Quoting Orcasystems:

Its like us selling Raw logs to China/Japan... so we can but them back as cheap furniture... its STUPID.


Damn right it is!

Then again, I live in a logging town that has no economy since the pulp and paper mills moved to China. :/
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Quoting JupiterKen:


There are plenty of not that smart people posting on this blog. One would think that exactly one-half the population would be below average and the other half above. Averages are not hard to understand for those in the upper half.


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Quoting BobWallace:


Almost half the population has a below average IQ.

There are plenty not-that-smart people available to watch Fox.


There are plenty of not that smart people posting on this blog. One would think that exactly one-half the population would be below average and the other half above. Averages are not hard to understand for those in the upper half.
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996. Skyepony (Mod)
13S has little convection. 01W is having a hard time getting past a single spit firing from the center. Sun setting on Giovanna. Click pic for loop.


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Quoting RTSplayer:


Wait. You're saying they still don't have enough refineries to make their own gasoline?

How is that possible?

I don't keep up with everything, because most of what goes on in our own media and government is lies and half-truths anyway, but why would such a big oil exporter not have their own economy over-loaded with refineries?

Why not have even more refineries than they need, and export by-products?

That makes no economic sense at all.


Its not that unusual... why do you think they want to build a pipeline from Canada to Texas. Its not to sell you Gas... its to sell you unrefined bitumen, so you can refine it into Oil/Gas.. and we will buy some of it back.

Like you guys... we have not built a new refinery in 20 years. Does it make sense to us... no... but it makes sense to the Oil company's. Its like us selling Raw logs to China/Japan... so we can but them back as cheap furniture... its STUPID.
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Quoting RTSplayer:


Wait. You're saying they still don't have enough refineries to make their own gasoline?

How is that possible?

I don't keep up with everything, because most of what goes on in our own media and government is lies and half-truths anyway, but why would such a big oil exporter not have their own economy over-loaded with refineries?

Why not have even more refineries than they need, and export by-products?

That makes no economic sense at all.


Good sir - correct. Iran does not have enough refining capacity that is able to operate to meet their internal needs for petroleum products.

It's poor planning and funding by the government that causes it. I don't know why anyone would sell nearly all their crude, nat gas, and condensate to then turn around and import finished products. But whatever.

To be fair, refining crude into gasoline is a losing proposition in much of the US right now. I don't know how gasoline and diesel price in Iran but it's certainly possible that some other country's refinery could make products cheaper than you could.

It may not make sense but sometimes refining crude means you lose money. That is definitely the case in the northwest US. Hence that why 4 refineries have shut down and one more is going to by July.
Member Since: September 3, 2007 Posts: 0 Comments: 527
What got into Giovanna? Up to 95 mph...
Member Since: February 11, 2012 Posts: 84 Comments: 8032
Quoting GeorgiaStormz:





Iran cannot match up so they will use speed boats and try to avoid direct combat with our navy. They have a much better chance on land, and without their allies help, will stay away from the US navy as long as they can



Well, I was theory crafting about how an Iranian military commander would plan things, given their goals, world view, and morals(or lack thereof).

The speed boats are a problem, if they can get a LOT of them armed with proximity bombs and perhaps rocket launchers. It only takes one or two people per speed boat, and even if you have a manual detonator, the pilots could dive over-board at the last possible moment.

It's harder for the big Naval vessels' guns to lock on to small targets, and it also takes time for helicopters and drones to get airborne to intercept.

So if the Iranians were going to try to attack our fleet, they'd want to distract them either with some rockets from the mainland, or a small detachment of their own Navy. Then have some loyalists or fanatics (Al Qaeda or Taliban or someone) pilot dozens of speed boats on suicide missions to attack the destroyers and carrier. The submarines would try to get in range and let loose some torpedoes during the carnage and then retreat.

This way, by using a "distract and sapper" strategy, they'd maximize their chances of getting some of the suicide bombers or torpedoes through. A conventional "stand-up and fight" strategy clearly has no chance from the Iranian perspective.


The other alternative is they could put proximity bombs on civilian aircraft and try to mob the fleet in a sneak attack. Although almost none of them would get through anyway. The AA of the fleet is just too good for this to work, unless it's done in tandem with a significant distraction to engage all the countermeasures.
Member Since: January 25, 2012 Posts: 33 Comments: 1520

Quoting RTSplayer:


Iran is either really stupid, or they're just posturing trying to look strong to their own people and the surrounding mid-east nations.


I was doing a bit of research on Iran's known navy resources, and it's not much.

Sure, they could get lucky and land some torpedo hits, but that's an extreme unlikelihood.

Most of our ships have more counter-measures and defensive weapons than the entire arsenal of the typical Iranian vessel.

the biggest wild card really is the submarines, but they have all diesel electric from mostly 30 or 40 years old models.

They do have some home grown subs and ships, as well as some from china, but even those are completely out-classed by ours.


Quoting beell:


Maybe they (Iran) just don't want their naval resources sitting in port as easy targets. A bit more of a political issue to sink an Iranian ship in the Mediterranean.


Iran cannot match up so they will use speed boats and try to avoid direct combat with our navy. They have a much better chance on land, and without their allies help, will stay away from the US navy as long as they can

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Quoting BobWallace:


Almost half the population has a below average IQ.

There are plenty not-that-smart people available to watch Fox.



I would argue that half are below and the other half are above average in intelligence. Hence the term "average."
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Quoting BahaHurican:
I went from 2x weekly to 3x monthly with a switch to a Chevy Aveo. I'd love to run a hybrid out here, but I'd have to direct import from the US to get it. Local dealers don't sell 'em yet [they have beaucoup shares / investments in the local oil import companies].

One lives in hopes.

The thing is, in places south of about 30N, and in the desert / high steppe areas of the US, solar has such great potential. We prolly get 30 days a year in the Bahamas when we have no sun at all, and with today's predictive skill we have a fairly good idea when those days will occur. Solar should be a no-brainer.
some of the folks in my neighborhood have the solar panels on their roof, for hot water i guess, i bet in the long run it saves them alot of money, their electric bills will be lower thats for sure
Member Since: August 6, 2011 Posts: 4 Comments: 42045
Quoting PensacolaDoug:
FOX rules the ratings. Chaps your butts, admit it. LOL


Almost half the population has a below average IQ.

There are plenty not-that-smart people available to watch Fox.
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Quoting BahaHurican:
I went from 2x weekly to 3x monthly with a switch to a Chevy Aveo. I'd love to run a hybrid out here, but I'd have to direct import from the US to get it. Local dealers don't sell 'em yet [they have beaucoup shares / investments in the local oil import companies].

One lives in hopes.

The thing is, in places south of about 30N, and in the desert / high steppe areas of the US, solar has such great potential. We prolly get 30 days a year in the Bahamas when we have no sun at all, and with today's predictive skill we have a fairly good idea when those days will occur. Solar should be a no-brainer.


In the Bahamas, do you do much >35MPH driving? I would imagine not on most of the smaller islands.

It would seem that the Bahamas would be a perfect place for a "neighborhood" electric car. Speed is limited to 35MPH, but they are very affordable and could be charged with a simple solar array.

And in the places where you sometimes drive at higher speeds, do people drive more than 30 miles per day? Might there not be a market for electric conversions? (Pulling the motor out of a "Civic" and installing an electric motor and batteries.)

It sure seems like island nations like the Bahamas would be prime territory for EVs. Importing fuel is expensive and Sun is plentiful.

(I've spent a couple of winters in the Bahamas, but on a sailboat. Not a lot of experience with traffic.)
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FOX rules the ratings. Chaps your butts, admit it. LOL
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Quoting BobWallace:

A new survey of New Jersey voters comes to a provocative conclusion: Fox News viewers tend to be less informed about current events than those who don't watch any news at all.

Fairleigh Dickinson University recently questioned 612 adults in New Jersey about how they get their news, offering as options traditional outlets like newspapers and local and national television news, or blogs, websites and even Comedy Central's "The Daily Show."


They then asked a series of factual questions about the major events of the last year, from the "Arab Spring" to the Republican race for president.

For example, respondents were first asked whether, to the best of their knowledge, opposition groups in Egypt had been successful in bringing down the Mubarak regime.

Among NPR listeners, 68% correctly said they had been; only 49% of Fox News viewers answered correctly. In fact, the survey found, Fox viewers were 18 percentage points less likely to answer correctly than those who watched no news at all.

"The results show us that there is something about watching Fox News that leads people to do worse on these questions than those who don't watch any news at all," said Dan Cassino, a political science professor at Fairleigh Dickinson.


http://articles.latimes.com/2011/nov/21/news/la-p n-fox-news-poll-20111121

The question remaining is whether Fox makes you ignorant or whether their audience is largely incapable of learning.

I'm going to guess that it's a bit of both. I'm basing that on seeing a bit of Fox misreporting and observing the lack of intellectual skills of Fox-types such as most climate change deniers.

But that's just a guess. We don't yet have any data.... ;o)



I don't doubt that at all.

You have to be careful, because the liberal media has issues too.

That's what I was talking about above in the previous post.

You can listen to FOX and CNN reporting on something, and it's almost as if they are reporting on a completely different event. Their versions of the story are so different that you can't even make out facts.


Then, they'll get a liberal "expert" and a conservative "expert" in an interview, and instead of having a discussion, they get in a big argument and spew nonsense and personal attacks for half their air time.

Even when they do discuss things, their views of the issue are so radically different, that it's logically impossible for them to both be "experts"; one or both are a liars or just an idiot with a degree.
Member Since: January 25, 2012 Posts: 33 Comments: 1520

A new survey of New Jersey voters comes to a provocative conclusion: Fox News viewers tend to be less informed about current events than those who don't watch any news at all.

Fairleigh Dickinson University recently questioned 612 adults in New Jersey about how they get their news, offering as options traditional outlets like newspapers and local and national television news, or blogs, websites and even Comedy Central's "The Daily Show."


They then asked a series of factual questions about the major events of the last year, from the "Arab Spring" to the Republican race for president.

For example, respondents were first asked whether, to the best of their knowledge, opposition groups in Egypt had been successful in bringing down the Mubarak regime.

Among NPR listeners, 68% correctly said they had been; only 49% of Fox News viewers answered correctly. In fact, the survey found, Fox viewers were 18 percentage points less likely to answer correctly than those who watched no news at all.

"The results show us that there is something about watching Fox News that leads people to do worse on these questions than those who don't watch any news at all," said Dan Cassino, a political science professor at Fairleigh Dickinson.


http://articles.latimes.com/2011/nov/21/news/la-p n-fox-news-poll-20111121

The question remaining is whether Fox makes you ignorant or whether their audience is largely incapable of learning.

I'm going to guess that it's a bit of both. I'm basing that on seeing a bit of Fox misreporting and observing the lack of intellectual skills of Fox-types such as most climate change deniers.

But that's just a guess. We don't yet have any data.... ;o)
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Quoting LargoFl:
gee 5.00 already for you there, man thats alot, i tried to do my lil part, i bought a hybrid honda, best thing i ever did, ge ts almost 46 mpg City!i used to gas up every week, not anymore now its almost once a month, big cash savings for my family.
I went from 2x weekly to 3x monthly with a switch to a Chevy Aveo. I'd love to run a hybrid out here, but I'd have to direct import from the US to get it. Local dealers don't sell 'em yet [they have beaucoup shares / investments in the local oil import companies].

One lives in hopes.

The thing is, in places south of about 30N, and in the desert / high steppe areas of the US, solar has such great potential. We prolly get 30 days a year in the Bahamas when we have no sun at all, and with today's predictive skill we have a fairly good idea when those days will occur. Solar should be a no-brainer.
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Quoting aspectre:
962 PolishHurrMaster "IRAN EMBARGOED GAS EXPORT TO FRANCE AND UK."

1) How would anyone be able to tell? Natural gas is 100% fungible. Selling its natural gas to eg China merely releases the gas that China would have bought elsewhere to be sold to France and the UK.
2) Iran hasta sell its products to anyone who's willing to buy. eg Over the last 40years, most of its crude oil export revenues have gone toward buying&subsidizing gasoline imports. Yeah, Iran is that bass ackwards.


Wait. You're saying they still don't have enough refineries to make their own gasoline?

How is that possible?

I don't keep up with everything, because most of what goes on in our own media and government is lies and half-truths anyway, but why would such a big oil exporter not have their own economy over-loaded with refineries?

Why not have even more refineries than they need, and export by-products?

That makes no economic sense at all.
Member Since: January 25, 2012 Posts: 33 Comments: 1520
962 PolishHurrMaster "IRAN EMBARGOED GAS EXPORT TO FRANCE AND UK."

1) How would anyone be able to tell? Natural gas is 100% fungible. Selling its natural gas to eg China merely releases the gas that China would have bought elsewhere to be sold to France and the UK.
2) Iran hasta sell its products to anyone who's willing to buy. eg Over the last 40years, most of its crude oil export revenues have gone toward buying&subsidizing gasoline imports. Yeah, Iran is that bass ackwards.
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Quoting Patrap:
I learned all I know about the Tides and da Moon from Professor Bill O'Reilly


If you're referring to him saying "we don't know how that happens," I think that was a poor choice of words.

O'Reilly was wrong in the sense that science can describe and predict this behavior very well.

He was right in the sense that technically, we actually do not know how gravity works.

We have some models that make very good predictions over solar system scale distances, but fail at galactic and inter-galactic distances.

Dark Matter and Dark Energy could be artifacts of some sort of flaw in General Relativity, or they could be "new" particles and forces.

Either way, our understanding of "Universal Gravity" is far from complete.

It's impossible for any model to be absolutely perfect, except by coincidence, because the scale of the universe is so large that you cannot make sufficient observations to test all parameters to be sure the model is making precise and accurate predictions for all space, matter, and energy, never mind all of time.


The stronger telescopes became, the more wrong Newton and Einstein have been shown to be. Their theories made good predictions about certain subsets of interactions, but are insufficient on galactic and inter-galactic scales.

I suspect that Relativity isn't even accurate on planetary scales, its just that the margin of error over such small distance during human lifetimes is small enough that it can't be detected with existing technologies. i.e. if MOND is true, then you'd likely never now the difference inside the solar system, because the distance isn't big enough to start to matter.


One of Dawkin's problems is he pretends to deal in absolutes that actually aren't yet known to be absolutes.
Member Since: January 25, 2012 Posts: 33 Comments: 1520

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Jeff co-founded the Weather Underground in 1995 while working on his Ph.D. He flew with the NOAA Hurricane Hunters from 1986-1990.

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