Heavy snow collapses Minneapolis Metrodome roof

By: Dr. Jeff Masters , 6:22 PM GMT on December 12, 2010

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A raging December blizzard buried Minneapolis, Minnesota under 17 inches of snow over the weekend, triggering the collapse early this morning of the air-inflated roof of the Minneapolis Metrodome, home of the Minnesota Vikings football team. The storm roared out of Canada on Friday morning, bringing heavy snow, sustained winds of 25 – 35 mph, and blizzard conditions through Montana, North Dakota, South Dakota, Minnesota, Wisconsin, and Michigan. The heaviest snows occurred near Osceola, Wisconsin, where 23 inches fell. The storm also dumped 21" at Noisy Basin, Montana, 14" in Williston, ND, and 14" in Negaunee, MI. Officially, 17.1” of snow fell at the Minneapolis airport; 16.3” of it on Saturday. Saturday's snow amounted to 1.75” of melted precipitation, for a snow-to-water equivalent ratio of 9:1. For those of you who've ever shoveled snow know, that's a very wet, heavy snow, and its no wonder the roof of the Metrodome had trouble with such a huge weight of snow.


Figure 1. Amount of precipitation for the 24 hours ending at 1am EST Sunday, in melted snow equivalent. Up to two inches of precipitation fell (brown colors) near the Minnesota-Wisconsin border. Image credit: NOAA /NOHRSC.

In the wake of the storm, bitterly cold air from Canada will sweep southwards into the U.S., and high temperatures near 0°F are expected for Minneapolis on Monday. Lows near -30°F are expected in northern Minnesota near International Falls on Monday night. The cold will penetrate into Florida's orange groves Monday night, with lows in the mid-20s expected in Orlando.

Jeff Masters

Dec MPLS Snow Storm (Holocron)
Dec MPLS Snow Storm
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Window Frost (tomekandjola)
Window Frost

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771. biff4ugo
6:51 PM GMT on December 14, 2010
9 of the 50 years 35-85 fall below the average line on your graph. Even during your "lull" 22 of the 50 are on or above the rising trend line. None of the last 20 years even reach down to the average temperature, black line.
The first half of the graph is below the line, the second half is above, and you are still seeing flat. Seastep, You are one committed climate conservative.
I am open to opposing points of view, but using this graph to prove your point, is a bad choice.
Member Since: December 28, 2006 Posts: 116 Comments: 1605
770. Neapolitan
6:05 PM GMT on December 14, 2010
NEW BLOG ENTRY
Member Since: November 8, 2009 Posts: 4 Comments: 13805
769. Minnemike
5:37 PM GMT on December 14, 2010
the presence of an outlier year is not automatically an indicator of a cycle. in fact, that shouldn't even be inferred by the latest UAH graph shown on you last post Seastep. you seem to me to be seeing what you want to see, so i have a hard time taking you on your word about waiting for the data to pan out before you take a stance. honestly, i think your stance is taken as evidenced by your playful use of data. i wouldn't exactly agree that you've let it speak for itself.
Member Since: July 31, 2008 Posts: 0 Comments: 1320
768. Seastep
5:29 PM GMT on December 14, 2010
749. Minnemike

No, it doesn't end in 1997, but what appears to be a cycle did end and a new cycle started, if it validates over the next 20-30 years.

Again, take it however you might. It's just an observation. You may not place any significance on it, and no one is forcing you to.

Also, data is not GISS. It is the complete satellite temperature record from UAH.

GISS is an inferior data set due to lack of spacial coverage. Why we sent the birds up in the first place... to get better data.

We'll see how the obs play out over the next 10-30 years to see if there is, in fact, another spike upwards.

While there are many that seem 100% certain of another spike, I don't know if there will or won't be. Again, just an observation.

Need more data. There is no conclusion to be drawn from it, other than a spike will be necessary in the next 30 years or the IPCC prediction is pretty much toast.

We shall see, but I'm leaning towards flat to downward for the next 30 years based on the GISS/UAH melded data from 1880-2009. i.e., GISS data pre-1979 and UAH for 1979 forward. I'll do another similar to the analysis as above. From 1940 or so through about 1979 when the satellite record began, the trend is flat to slightly downward. Sorry don't have my data set handy here at work, but here's the full record.

My blog has an explanation of the below graph. Again, just an observation. I don't claim to know either way. The observations will show. If I had to bet my life on it, I'd go with 1998-2048 or so being flat like 1935-1985. Really pretty flat, by eye, 1935-1997.

Member Since: September 9, 2008 Posts: 6 Comments: 3414
767. grayingwindsurfer
5:28 PM GMT on December 14, 2010
1st-hand account of weather-related problems on a cruise in the Mediterranean from a friend

We started encountering some thunder storms and bad weather while in Rhodes, Greece. Apparently, they get over 300 days of sunshine a year so this was a bit strange. The bad weather followed us on the Mediterranean while we traveled from Rhodes to Egypt. It continually built until we were in a pretty bad situation. We hit 90mph winds and 35 foot seas. Over half of the cruise ship is sea sick.

Outside of Alexandria (our Egyptian port) we encountered a traffic jam of ships waiting to enter the closed harbor. Our captain was forced to decrease speed and change course to avoid the many jogging tankers. We took about 90 straight seconds of 15 degree rolls (that's a lot) at 3am. Everything in our cabin and the ship went flying back and forth (this is what I picture an earthquake feeling like). We were sliding back and forth across our room on our bed. Many of the common areas on the ship are destroyed. Broken glass, holes in the walls, etc... Almost all of the glasses and plates in the dining areas are broken. Some passengers were injured but I haven't heard of any serious incidents yet.

Today, we stood in line for an hour to eat cold cuts and rolls off of paper plates. Our captain informed us that the weather would continue for the next couple of days and the port would remain closed. So we're not going to spend two days in Egypt (Cairio, The Nile, Pyramids, etc...). Instead, we're heading to Malta a day early so we can get out of this storm. Everyone is massively disappointed.

The guests are getting pretty angry. Over half of the common areas on the ship are closed so there's little else to do except sit in your room moving up and down with the waves. It feels like you're on a roller coaster that you can't get off of. They have about 4 TV shows on a loop and all of the live shows/entertainment have been cancelled. The casino is in ruins after many of the slot machines toppled over. I've heard rumors that this is the worst weather and damage the cruise line has ever sustained.

We're heading out of the storm now and things seems to be improving. It will be very nice to get to Malta and onto stable land.

Update: We should be getting to Valetta, Malta this afternoon. The seas were calm last night and everyone got some much needed sleep. However, the weather has taken another rough turn. We are again traveling through 70mph winds and large waves – although no where near as severe as the past couple of days.

The ship credited back all of our excursions for Egypt and credited everyone on board an additional $200 to spend as they like. That would be great if any of the casinos, bars, stores were open to spend that money. There are now petitions going around amongst the guests asking for their money back. There's a real mutiny vibe going on here. We're not allowed outside or on the top floors of the boat. Combining this with all of the activity and location cancellations there's really not a lot to do. It's like being trapped in my bedroom but with much less TV options and everything is moving.

Apparently, there have been some news reports on CNN and other news outlets about the cruise. We have seen some reports on BBC showing all of the closed ports and even some video of Alexandria, Egypt shoreline getting battered by the storm. Literally, waves were washing away some of the buildings on the coast. I guess it's good that we moved on to Malta a couple of days early.
Member Since: December 11, 2002 Posts: 1 Comments: 24
766. Minnemike
5:22 PM GMT on December 14, 2010
Quoting reedzone:
Some spots on Long Island received 3 inches of snow, and still counting. It made sense for a band of snow to develop in back of the potent low, this is why I never backed down on my forecast for some snowy surprise for the East Coast. On to the next potential Big Daddy storm.. Really depends how the blocking pattern turns out, the 06Z GFS takes the EURO track, too far east. The DGEX (NAM) model run which did an outstanding job on the previous storm, takes it too far east. Gonna have to see what happens, still days away and things can change. I'm hoping this turns out to be a decent snowstorm to fill the dreams of the kids and people who want a White Christmas. They had one last year, hopefully they get a double dose.
Reed, have you any notion from model observations about how the next batch of energy out west should impact MN?
Member Since: July 31, 2008 Posts: 0 Comments: 1320
765. caneswatch
5:21 PM GMT on December 14, 2010
Quoting Grothar:


Sarcasm, on this blog? What next?


A-hurricane-will-hit-the-US-in-January talk lol
Member Since: October 8, 2008 Posts: 14 Comments: 4553
764. nocaneindy
5:12 PM GMT on December 14, 2010
Quoting reedzone:
Some spots on Long Island received 3 inches of snow, and still counting. It made sense for a band of snow to develop in back of the potent low, this is why I never backed down on my forecast for some snowy surprise for the East Coast. On to the next potential Big Daddy storm.. Really depends how the blocking pattern turns out, the 06Z GFS takes the EURO track, too far east. The DGEX (NAM) model run which did an outstanding job on the previous storm, takes it too far east. Gonna have to see what happens, still days away and things can change. I'm hoping this turns out to be a decent snowstorm to fill the dreams of the kids and people who want a White Christmas. They had one last year, hopefully they get a double dose.


A lot of local NWS stations discounted the NAM on the last system, and I did as well. But all in all, it had the storm pegged.
Member Since: September 21, 2007 Posts: 34 Comments: 515
763. reedzone
5:11 PM GMT on December 14, 2010
Quoting hurricanejunky:


What I meant was what did you get down to there? I'm sure your northern blood served you well LOL!


I think we went down to 25, which was our forecast low.. Gotta check out the records though. Just found the actual low.. 23.5 F
Member Since: July 1, 2008 Posts: 13 Comments: 7437
762. hurricanejunky
5:08 PM GMT on December 14, 2010
Quoting caneswatch:


Sigh, I hate it when that happens........


Sorry I duped you! It's all cleared up now though, right?
Member Since: August 28, 2006 Posts: 6 Comments: 2899
761. Grothar
5:08 PM GMT on December 14, 2010
Quoting caneswatch:


No one, just got fooled into a sarcastic post LOL


Sarcasm, on this blog? What next?
Member Since: July 17, 2009 Posts: 71 Comments: 27211
760. hurricanejunky
5:06 PM GMT on December 14, 2010
Quoting reedzone:


I'm originally from NY, sure it was cold, but I'm not dressed up like Eskimos as other people are here. In answer to your question, I fared well :)


What I meant was what did you get down to there? I'm sure your northern blood served you well LOL!
Member Since: August 28, 2006 Posts: 6 Comments: 2899
759. caneswatch
5:04 PM GMT on December 14, 2010
Quoting Grothar:


Who are you arguing with now?


No one, just got fooled into a sarcastic post LOL
Member Since: October 8, 2008 Posts: 14 Comments: 4553
758. Grothar
5:01 PM GMT on December 14, 2010
Quoting caneswatch:


Sigh, I hate it when that happens........


Who are you arguing with now?
Member Since: July 17, 2009 Posts: 71 Comments: 27211
757. reedzone
4:59 PM GMT on December 14, 2010
Quoting hurricanejunky:


Reed! How did you fare this morning with temps?


I'm originally from NY, sure it was cold, but I'm not dressed up like Eskimos as other people are here. In answer to your question, I fared well :)
Member Since: July 1, 2008 Posts: 13 Comments: 7437
756. caneswatch
4:58 PM GMT on December 14, 2010
Quoting hurricanejunky:


I forgot to turn the "heavy sarcasm" switch on. I was being sarcastic to the highest degree.


Sigh, I hate it when that happens........
Member Since: October 8, 2008 Posts: 14 Comments: 4553
755. hurricanejunky
4:57 PM GMT on December 14, 2010
Quoting reedzone:
Some spots on Long Island received 3 inches of snow, and still counting. It made sense for a band of snow to develop in back of the potent low, this is why I never backed down on my forecast for some snowy surprise for the East Coast. On to the next potential Big Daddy storm.. Really depends how the blocking pattern turns out, the 06Z GFS takes the EURO track, too far east. The DGEX (NAM) model run which did an outstanding job on the previous storm, takes it too far east. Gonna have to see what happens, still days away and things can change. I'm hoping this turns pout to be a decent snowstorm to fill the dreams of the kids and people who want a White Christmas. They had one last year, hopefully they get a double dose.


Reed! How did you fare this morning with temps?
Member Since: August 28, 2006 Posts: 6 Comments: 2899
754. reedzone
4:55 PM GMT on December 14, 2010
Some spots on Long Island received 3 inches of snow, and still counting. It made sense for a band of snow to develop in back of the potent low, this is why I never backed down on my forecast for some snowy surprise for the East Coast. On to the next potential Big Daddy storm.. Really depends how the blocking pattern turns out, the 06Z GFS takes the EURO track, too far east. The DGEX (NAM) model run which did an outstanding job on the previous storm, takes it too far east. Gonna have to see what happens, still days away and things can change. I'm hoping this turns out to be a decent snowstorm to fill the dreams of the kids and people who want a White Christmas. They had one last year, hopefully they get a double dose.
Member Since: July 1, 2008 Posts: 13 Comments: 7437
753. hurricanejunky
4:53 PM GMT on December 14, 2010
Quoting caneswatch:


Makes no sense at all what you said. Explain how greenies are greedy while those who pollute aren't?


I forgot to turn the "heavy sarcasm" switch on. I was being sarcastic to the highest degree.
Member Since: August 28, 2006 Posts: 6 Comments: 2899
752. PakaSurvivor
4:51 PM GMT on December 14, 2010
Quoting mara0921:
I knew it was bad when I turned on Channel 7 news in Miami this morning and they show the big thermometor on Lincoln Road showing 35 degrees. I immediately do outside ( after 5 minutes of dressing ) and my thermometor reads 31 degrees and my car and all the other cars are covered in frost and the grass is crunchy from the the sprinklers overnight, and Im in Fort Lauderdale

That's not too bad. Bad is when you let the dog out this morning, get ready for work and head back to let the dog in and he's already taken your side of the bed. How you ask? My wife cat can unlock and open the sliding glass door. So we enclosed the patio and put in one of those RF collor controlled doggy doors. All three cats are in their kitty condo in the bedroom! So the cat must have seen the dog at the sliding glass door and let him in. My complaint is I can't teach the cat to close the door! : )
Member Since: September 20, 2010 Posts: 0 Comments: 235
751. Minnemike
4:48 PM GMT on December 14, 2010
Quoting caneswatch:


Makes no sense at all what you said. Explain how greenies are greedy while those who pollute aren't?
sarcasm should explain it.
Member Since: July 31, 2008 Posts: 0 Comments: 1320
750. lightningbolt73
4:48 PM GMT on December 14, 2010
Good morning all! I don't know if it got down to freezing in Sarasota, Florida this morning. I hear its going to be 76 here on Friday. That will be sweet!
Member Since: October 19, 2010 Posts: 0 Comments: 112
749. Minnemike
4:47 PM GMT on December 14, 2010
Seastep... why do you keep breaking time at 1998????? the earth did not end in '97, reform, and begin again in '98. let us suppose that in one week, from a Sun-Sat, temps in one place were chronologically 45, 55, 95, 70, 75, 85, 90, has not the week gotten warmer from the first day to the last?

what happened to data in 1998 that we should throw out the connection to any year before it? also, start in 1999 and work through 2009 data, is there not a warming trend? do you know what outlier means in statistics, and how to treat it?

climate science is not about what happens discretely from one year to the next; it is about trends. when discussing trends, discrete values need to be combined wherever possible. you are mistakenly isolating 1998 to make a point that the globe has cooled since then. *it hasn't cooled according to the data you yourself posted, which i cite here http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/graphs/Fig.C.lrg.gif

this is why you were accused of cherry picking. for my imaginary week of example temps, there were two days prior to the hottest day of the week, so in that sample, one would state the week progressively warmed from start to finish. only when throwing out the first two days would one be able to say the week cooled. still, even from that point when 4 out of 5 days experience warming from one to the next, even a layman should be able to see that cooling is not the trend there.

you really need to stop breaking time in half at '98 so that you can understand the reason why people state there has been continued warming since then. if, and only if, time began at the hottest measurement in '98 would you come close to accuracy. however, just like my made up example, you still have to deal with the fact that the period following that outlier year also indicates a warming trend.
Member Since: July 31, 2008 Posts: 0 Comments: 1320
748. unf97
4:45 PM GMT on December 14, 2010
Good morning to all on the WU blog!!

I had a low temperature this morning of 20.3 degrees registered on my thermometer, the coldest of the season thus far.

The National Weather Service office at Jacksonville International Airport, about five miles from where I live, confirmed 20 degrees also this morning to establish a new record low temperature for this date, breaking the old mark of 24 degrees set back in 1960.

A very impressive arctic airmass to say the least. Currently as we approach the 12 noon hour, it has only warmed to 36.6 degrees. Dewpoint temperatures are in the single digits currently. Wow! Don't see that too often down here that's for sure.

Winds will get lighter as the day progresses as the cold arctic dome of High pressure settles in closer on top of the SE US region. This will set the stage for prime radiational cooling conditions tonight and the mercury is going to drop like a rock in most areas. I expect the coldest readings in most places by sunrise tomorrow morning, even more colder than this morning. Temps should drop down into the teens in my area of Jax, as well as the other interior portions of North Florida.

Central Florida looks to have temps possibly into the low-mid 20s in the colder regions in that part of the state, and it looks as though the freezing line is going to drop down all the way to the Alligator Alley corridor in the Everglades. A very impressive cold air mass indeed.

The warm-up commences beginning Thursday into Saturday for the peninsula as we get the flow to veer back to the south-southwest ahead of the next cold front due to arrive across the state on Sunday. It appears that the models are showing that although it will be turning colder again on Sunday, this next cold air mass coming will not be nearly as severe as this current cold outbreak.
Member Since: September 25, 2007 Posts: 0 Comments: 1193
747. mara0921
4:30 PM GMT on December 14, 2010
I knew it was bad when I turned on Channel 7 news in Miami this morning and they show the big thermometor on Lincoln Road showing 35 degrees. I immediately do outside ( after 5 minutes of dressing ) and my thermometor reads 31 degrees and my car and all the other cars are covered in frost and the grass is crunchy from the the sprinklers overnight, and Im in Fort Lauderdale
Member Since: November 23, 2009 Posts: 0 Comments: 19
746. caneswatch
4:29 PM GMT on December 14, 2010
Quoting hurricanejunky:


Don't start complicating things with all those numbers and statistics. Facts don't fit in the conversation. I think a bunch of eyes just glossed over. You really think you'll get thru THIS time? It hasn't worked the other 3,472 times, what makes you think those thick skulls are penetrable?

Anyone who cares about the environment is money grubbing but anyone who likes to pollute isn't. It makes total sense, doesn't it? LOL!
It's a laughable debate that I can't stomach. You can't argue with lead bricks.

Keep going brother! Hopefully someday people will become rational...


Makes no sense at all what you said. Explain how greenies are greedy while those who pollute aren't?
Member Since: October 8, 2008 Posts: 14 Comments: 4553
745. PrivateIdaho
4:27 PM GMT on December 14, 2010
Quoting hurricanejunky:


Hey PI, how have you been? It's OK as long as it's sports talk. No problem there...
Things are good now that I sent all the cold weather to FL. We have had record highs in the upper 40s-low 50s last few days....Got a storm coming through today though.
Member Since: August 29, 2010 Posts: 0 Comments: 5236
744. hurricanejunky
4:24 PM GMT on December 14, 2010
Quoting PrivateIdaho:
Hey I hardly wasted any of your tax dollars yesterday...well I did loiter by the coffee machine and talk football for 20 min. But today it will be a productive day of cow fart research!


Hey PI, how have you been? It's OK as long as it's sports talk. No problem there...
Member Since: August 28, 2006 Posts: 6 Comments: 2899
743. Neapolitan
4:23 PM GMT on December 14, 2010
Quoting calusakat:
Are you really that uneducated about money?

Are you aware that the taxes paid for aid to the poor actually translates to pennies on the dollar by the time it reaches the people for whom it was intended.

Do you actually think that the taxes and money collected for Carbon Offset will even remotely equal what is actually spent. Pennies on the dollar is what it will amount to after middle men galore take their share before it gets to who need it most.

Not to mention the fact that when you compare how long the oil companies have been in existence to the time that the Greenie crowd has captured almost 10 percent in less than eight years. Thats a pretty astounding growth rate by any measure.

And you have the temerity to suggest it is not about the money?

Like I said earlier...stop being a shill for Greenies (not all Greenies, just the AGW Greenies) and their money grubber counter-parts in the AGW crowd.

I am a Greenie who thinks AGW is an out and out lie.

BTW...How does it feel to be labeled as a crackpot like you have done to those who disagree with you? Doesn't feel good, does it? Maybe you should stop.



I guess what I should stop is spending any more time on you; the way you keep moving the "point" of the conversation makes it hard to keep up with you. To summarize: you accused the "AGW crowd" of being money grubbers, but when I provided numbers to show that just the top five oil companies in the world have made ten times as much profit in the past eight years as all renewable energy companies combined, you responded with a complaint about tax aid to the poor.

Huh?

At any rate, if those in the anti-science crowd choose to label me a "crackpot", I know I'm on the right track. So, you know, thanks for further validating my beliefs. ;-)
Member Since: November 8, 2009 Posts: 4 Comments: 13805
742. PrivateIdaho
4:22 PM GMT on December 14, 2010
Quoting PakaSurvivor:
Out here in the Florida Boonies, Crestview is now at 31 deg... Oops, just dropped to 30. Oh how I miss summer! : (
lol...32 here.
Member Since: August 29, 2010 Posts: 0 Comments: 5236
741. hurricanejunky
4:22 PM GMT on December 14, 2010
Quoting Neapolitan:

The "money grubbing AGW crowd". Hmmm.

Profits--not revenue, but profits--for just the five largest oil companies for the years 2000-2008 were $656 billion. During that same span, profits for all renewable / clean / green / alternative energy companies--that is, every one on the planet--were an estimated $47 billion.

Any questions?


Don't start complicating things with all those numbers and statistics. Facts don't fit in the conversation. I think a bunch of eyes just glossed over. You really think you'll get thru THIS time? It hasn't worked the other 3,472 times, what makes you think those thick skulls are penetrable?

Anyone who cares about the environment is money grubbing but anyone who likes to pollute isn't. It makes total sense, doesn't it? LOL!
It's a laughable debate that I can't stomach. You can't argue with lead bricks.

Keep going brother! Hopefully someday people will become rational...
Member Since: August 28, 2006 Posts: 6 Comments: 2899
740. PakaSurvivor
4:20 PM GMT on December 14, 2010
Out here in the Florida Boonies, Crestview is now at 31 deg... Oops, just dropped to 30. Oh how I miss summer! : (
Member Since: September 20, 2010 Posts: 0 Comments: 235
739. Neapolitan
4:20 PM GMT on December 14, 2010
Quoting PensacolaDoug:



Are oil companies allowed to make a profit? If so, how much and at what rate of return is acceptable to you?

Of course they are. But that wasn't the point. The point was this: before anyone tries to "prove" that AGW adherents are "money grubbers" (and, thus, the AGW theory is false), they might want to consider that profits for the fossil fuel industry are quite literally dozens of times larger than those for the renewable energy industry. If there's any "grubbing" going on, then, it appears to be somewhat lopsided, no?
Member Since: November 8, 2009 Posts: 4 Comments: 13805
738. PrivateIdaho
4:17 PM GMT on December 14, 2010
Quoting TampaTom:
Just for giggles...

Why not push ahead on home-grown technologies as alternative energy sources so we don't have to station young men and women in politically unstable kingdoms in the Middle East where human rights violations are the norm?

How much does it cost every day to keep one carrier group on station in the Persian Gulf? What is one soldier/sailor/Marine/airman's life worth?

I'm in favor of getting out from under the thumb of these petty potentates...
Good post Tom! You would think those would be points everyone could agree on.

When did development of new technologies become a bad thing? Why not become the leader in alternative energy? This country has always been a leader in technological innovation and it has served us well. Why are thing different now?
Member Since: August 29, 2010 Posts: 0 Comments: 5236
737. Minnemike
4:15 PM GMT on December 14, 2010
Quoting RipplinH2O:
mean while, back at the ranch, while the uneducated masses are pretty much enjoying the booger eating moron name calling contest, we also pretty much put most of this mess on ignore (not WU ignore but real ignore)...
well then, i guess you won't be seeing this entry, as i can surely take a hint. i guess it's good you don't give up on people like i do, nor would you reciprocate the hurling of dung as i have. we need more folks out there like your self, but we also need some balancing of other 'forces' as well, imo. so, may we each excel in the role we wish to play. putting a user on the ignore list is a wise choice for any of you bloggers on here!!
Member Since: July 31, 2008 Posts: 0 Comments: 1320
736. hurricanejunky
4:13 PM GMT on December 14, 2010
Here in North Fort Myers, FL we got down to 30 even this morning. Power went out around 7am for 20 mins then came back on only to go off again at 7:50am and was off when I left for work. Too many thin bloods running the heat! The house was only 68 so our heat never kicked on. Good thing for the electric bill! Frost on the lawn and windshield...dead grass for a few weeks now. UGH! At least it's cold for the holidays, which is a welcome departure from the usual balmy temps this time of year. Hope everyone is having a good one thus far...
Member Since: August 28, 2006 Posts: 6 Comments: 2899
735. TampaTom
4:10 PM GMT on December 14, 2010
Just for giggles...

Why not push ahead on home-grown technologies as alternative energy sources so we don't have to station young men and women in politically unstable kingdoms in the Middle East where human rights violations are the norm?

How much does it cost every day to keep one carrier group on station in the Persian Gulf? What is one soldier/sailor/Marine/airman's life worth?

I'm in favor of getting out from under the thumb of these petty potentates...
Member Since: June 20, 2005 Posts: 22 Comments: 1054
734. PrivateIdaho
4:08 PM GMT on December 14, 2010
Quoting Seastep:
Can't stick around as it is a busy day for me, but here's a repost from last night as information.

Just presenting data and information. Some may find it to be a meaningful observation, some may not. It is simply an observation.

There was a jump in temps in 1998.

Simply as a relative number, the most recent IPCC prediction is +0.30C per decade.

From 1979-1997, the trend was about +0.05C per decade. Flat, for all practical purposes.

Then there was a jump.

From 1998-2009, the trend was about -0.03C per decade. Again, flat.

First is the full satellite temp record through 2009 with a trend line and my inserted average temp line (not a trend line) for 1979-1997 and 1998-2009.

That is followed by the 1979-1997 and 1998-2009 temp record separately.





I'd like to see the standard deviations associated with those data.
Member Since: August 29, 2010 Posts: 0 Comments: 5236
733. PensacolaDoug
4:05 PM GMT on December 14, 2010
Quoting Neapolitan:

The "money grubbing AGW crowd". Hmmm.

Profits--not revenue, but profits--for just the five largest oil companies for the years 2000-2008 were $656 billion. During that same span, profits for all renewable / clean / green / alternative energy companies--that is, every one on the planet--were an estimated $47 billion.

Any questions?



Are oil companies allowed to make a profit? If so, how much and at what rate of return is acceptable to you?
Member Since: July 25, 2006 Posts: 0 Comments: 670
731. hydrus
3:59 PM GMT on December 14, 2010
Quoting PrivateIdaho:
Hey I hardly wasted any of your tax dollars yesterday...well I did loiter by the coffee machine and talk football for 20 min. But today it will be a productive day of cow fart research!
I,d hate to be the one appointed to that branch of scientific research...:)
Member Since: September 27, 2007 Posts: 1 Comments: 22728
730. Seastep
3:56 PM GMT on December 14, 2010
Can't stick around as it is a busy day for me, but here's a repost from last night as information.

Just presenting data and information. Some may find it to be a meaningful observation, some may not. It is simply an observation.

There was a jump in temps in 1998.

Simply as a relative number, the most recent IPCC prediction is +0.30C per decade.

From 1979-1997, the trend was about +0.05C per decade. Flat, for all practical purposes.

Then there was a jump.

From 1998-2009, the trend was about -0.03C per decade. Again, flat.

First is the full satellite temp record through 2009 with a trend line and my inserted average temp line (not a trend line) for 1979-1997 and 1998-2009.

That is followed by the 1979-1997 and 1998-2009 temp record separately.





Member Since: September 9, 2008 Posts: 6 Comments: 3414
729. PrivateIdaho
3:56 PM GMT on December 14, 2010
Quoting hydrus:
You are correct C.K. And a lot of the problems this country is facing right now has everything to do with money...I believe me when I say to you that some of your hard earned tax dollars are being thrown into the proverbial waste basket..And its pi$$ing me off..
Hey I hardly wasted any of your tax dollars yesterday...well I did loiter by the coffee machine and talk football for 20 min. But today it will be a productive day of cow fart research!
Member Since: August 29, 2010 Posts: 0 Comments: 5236
728. hydrus
3:51 PM GMT on December 14, 2010
Quoting calusakat:
Are you really that uneducated about money?

Are you aware that the taxes paid for aid to the poor actually translates to pennies on the dollar by the time it reaches the people for whom it was intended.

Do you actually think that the taxes and money collected for Carbon Offset will even remotely equal what is actually spent. Pennies on the dollar is what it will amount to after middle men galore take their share before it gets to who need it most.

Not to mention the fact that when you compare how long the oil companies have been in existence to the time that the Greenie crowd has captured almost 10 percent in less than eight years. Thats a pretty astounding growth rate by any measure.

And you have the temerity to suggest it is not about the money?

Like I said earlier...stop being a shill for Greenies (not all Greenies, just the AGW Greenies) and their money grubber counter-parts in the AGW crowd.

I am a Greenie who thinks AGW is an out and out lie.

BTW...How does it feel to be labeled as a crackpot like you have done to those who disagree with you? Doesn't feel good, does it? Maybe you should stop.


You are correct C.K. And a lot of the problems this country is facing right now has everything to do with money...I believe me when I say to you that some of our hard earned tax dollars are being thrown into the proverbial waste basket..And its pi$$ing me off..
Member Since: September 27, 2007 Posts: 1 Comments: 22728
726. RipplinH2O
3:48 PM GMT on December 14, 2010
mean while, back at the ranch, while the uneducated masses are pretty much enjoying the booger eating moron name calling contest, we also pretty much put most of this mess on ignore (not WU ignore but real ignore)...
Member Since: July 30, 2010 Posts: 0 Comments: 491
725. PrivateIdaho
3:45 PM GMT on December 14, 2010
Read the regulations associated with some of these funding programs (not recommended for people with a low tolerance for boredom). For example ESTCP, SERDP, or go to the DOE site and look at funding opportunities. All the programs I'm familiar have strict requirements on how awarded money will be spent.
Member Since: August 29, 2010 Posts: 0 Comments: 5236
724. caneswatch
3:44 PM GMT on December 14, 2010
Quoting calusakat:
Are you really that uneducated about money?

Are you aware that the taxes paid for aid to the poor actually translates to pennies on the dollar by the time it reaches the people for whom it was intended.

Do you actually think that the taxes and money collected for Carbon Offset will even remotely equal what is actually spent. Pennies on the dollar is what it will amount to after middle men galore take their share before it gets to who need it most.

Not to mention the fact that when you compare how long the oil companies have been in existence to the time that the Greenie crowd has captured almost 10 percent in less than eight years. Thats a pretty astounding growth rate by any measure.

And you have the temerity to suggest it is not about the money?

Like I said earlier...stop being a shill for Greenies (not all Greenies, just the AGW Greenies) and their money grubber counter-parts in the AGW crowd.

I am a Greenie who thinks AGW is an out and out lie.

BTW...How does it feel to be labeled as a crackpot like you have done to those who disagree with you? Doesn't feel good, does it? Maybe you should stop.




I think you should stop as well.
Member Since: October 8, 2008 Posts: 14 Comments: 4553
723. hydrus
3:44 PM GMT on December 14, 2010
Quoting Minnemike:
sure, if one grossly mismanages the abundant wealth they already sit on top of, yeah, diminished profits in the order of millions, or billions, might just send them to the poor house... something tells me not a single person who could suffer from lost profits doesn't already have a spare, let's just say $100,000 to hire someone to manage their remaining millions, or billions, to ensure that it grows into a larger, or at least sustainable fortune. i however, will be struggling to get over 30K a year, gross, for probably the rest of my life. i am a pretty happy fella with much love and support around me. forgive my disgust at the very notion that anyone who is currently rich will be facing, well, my (the poor) house.
I know exactly where you are coming from. I could talk about the almost infinite possibilities if in fact this became a reality. The oil will run out someday, and oil dependency will become a thing of the past as countries will not be able to afford oil as supplies dwindle. Ultimately the world will be fatigued into compliance with more and more restrictions being put on energy consumption. The others will be forced by shear necessity to find alternative energy sources because oil will be beyond there financial grasp. jmo
Member Since: September 27, 2007 Posts: 1 Comments: 22728
722. Minnemike
3:42 PM GMT on December 14, 2010
#713, you claim the AGW platform is all about profiteering by means of disseminating falsehoods in a grand and greedy conspiracy. then, evidence is offered to counter that and you make some sort of retort about taxes, aid to the poor, and carbon offsets???? so after you've twisted and confused your own path of "logic", you then attempt to get back on track with a statement about a significant rise of profits in the green sector...? wow, nice attempt at a genuine scare tactic. it does well to mask Nea's actual figures, and ensures the continuing paranoid delusion that there must be something gone a-rye. kudos to the magnificence of your blinders.
Member Since: July 31, 2008 Posts: 0 Comments: 1320
721. PrivateIdaho
3:40 PM GMT on December 14, 2010
Quoting calusakat:
Are you suggesting that they don't get to take any of that money home?

Profit and Income there is a wee bit of a difference between the two.


That is exactly what I am saying. The institution that is employing the researcher may use some of the funding to pay salaries but no extra money is paid to the scientists.
Member Since: August 29, 2010 Posts: 0 Comments: 5236

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Jeff co-founded the Weather Underground in 1995 while working on his Ph.D. He flew with the NOAA Hurricane Hunters from 1986-1990.

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