Poorly sited U.S. temperature instruments not responsible for artificial warming

By: Dr. Jeff Masters , 5:57 PM GMT on January 25, 2010

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Former TV weatherman Anthony Watts, who runs the popular global warming contrarian website, "Watts Up With That", was convinced that many of the U.S. network of surface weather stations had serious flaws in their siting that was causing an artificial warm bias in the observed increase in U.S. temperatures of 1.1°F over the past century. To address this concern, Watts established the website surfacestations.org in 2007, which enlisted an army of volunteers to travel the U.S. to obtain photographic evidence of poor siting of weather stations. The goal was to document cases where "microclimate" influence was important, and could be contaminating temperature measurements. (Note that this is a separate issue from the Urban Heat Island, the phenomenon where a metropolitan area in general is warmer than surrounding rural areas). Watts' volunteers--650 strong--documented the siting of 865 of the 1,218 stations used in the National Climatic Data Center's U.S. Historical Climatology Network (USHCN) for tracking climate change. As reported in Watt's 2009 publication put out by the Heartland Institute, the volunteers "found stations located next to the exhaust fans of air conditioning units, surrounded by asphalt parking lots and roads, on blistering-hot rooftops, and near sidewalks and buildings that absorb and radiate heat." Watts surmised that these poorly-sited stations were responsible for much of the increase in U.S. temperatures over the past century, due to "a bias trend that likely results from the thermometers being closer to buildings, asphalt, etc." Watts concluded, "the U.S. temperature record is unreliable. And since the U.S. record is thought to be the best in the world, it follows that the global database is likely similarly compromised and unreliable".


Figure 1. A poorly sited temperature sensor in Marysville, California, used for the USHCN. The sensor is situation right next to an asphalt parking lot, instead in the middle of a grassy field, as it is supposed to be. The sensor is also adjacent to several several air conditioners that blow their exhaust into the air nearby. Image credit: surfacestation.org.

Analysis of the data disagrees with Watts' conclusion
While Watts' publication by the Heartland Institute is a valuable source of information on siting problems of the U.S. network of weather stations, the publication did not undergo peer-review--the process whereby three anonymous scientists who are experts in the field review a manuscript submitted for publication, and offer criticisms on the scientific validity of the results, resulting in revisions to the original paper or outright rejection. The Heartland Institute is an advocacy organization that accepts money from corporate benefactors such as the tobacco industry and fossil fuel industry, and publishes non-peer reviewed science that inevitably supports the interests of the groups paying for the studies. Watts did not actually analyze the data to see if taking out the poorly sited surface stations would have a significant impact on the observed 1.1°F increase in U.S. temperatures over the past century. His study would never have been publishable in a peer-reviewed scientific journal.


Figure 2. Annual average maximum and minimum unadjusted temperature change calculated using (c) maximum and (d) minimum temperatures from good and poor exposure sites (Menne 2010). Poor sites showed a cooler maximum temperature compared to good sites. For minimum temperature, the poor sites were slightly warmer. The net effect was a cool bias in poorly sited stations. The dashed lines are for stations ranked by NOAA, while the solid lines are for the stations ranked by surfacestations.org.

Fortunately, a proper analysis of the impact of these poorly-sited surface stations on the U.S. historical temperature record has now been done by Dr. Matthew Menne and co-authors at NOAA's National Climatic Data Center (NCDC). In a talk at last week's 90th Annual Meeting of the American Meteorological Society, Dr. Menne reported the results of their new paper just accepted for publication in the Journal of Geophysical Research titled, On the reliability of the U.S. Surface Temperature Record. Dr. Menne's study split the U.S. surface stations into two categories: good (rating 1 or 2) and bad (ratings 3, 4 or 5). They performed the analysis using both the rating provided by surfacestations.org, and from an independent rating provided by NOAA personnel. In general, the NOAA-provided ratings coincided with the ratings given by surfacestations.org. Of the NOAA-rated stations, only 71 stations fell into the "good" siting category, while 454 fell into the "bad" category. According to the authors, though, "the sites with good exposure, though small in number, are reasonably well distributed across the country and, as shown by Vose and Menne [2004], are of sufficient density to obtain a robust estimate of the CONUS average". Dr. Menne's study computed the average daily minimum and maximum temperatures from the good sites and poor sites. The results were surprising. While the poor sites had a slightly warmer average minimum temperature than the good sites (by 0.03°C), the average maximum temperature measured at the poor sites was significantly cooler (by 0.14°C) than the good sites. As a result, overall average temperatures measured at the poor sites were cooler than the good sites. This is the opposite of the conclusion reached by Anthony Watts in his 2009 Heartland Institute publication.

Why did the poorly sited stations measure cooler temperatures?
The reason why the poorly-sites stations measured cooler temperatures lies in the predominant types of thermometers used at the two types of sites. An electronic Maximum/Minimum Temperature System (MMTS) is used at 75% of the poor sites. These MMTS sensors are attached by cable to an indoor readout device, and are consequently limited by cable length as to how far they can be sited from the building housing the indoor readout device. As a result, they are often located close to heated buildings, paved surfaces, air conditioner exhausts, etc. It turns out that these MMTS thermometers have a flaw that causes them to measure minimum temperatures that are slightly too warm, and maximum temperatures that are considerably too cool, leading to an overall cool bias in measured average temperatures. In contrast, only 30% of the "good" sites used the MMTS sensors. The "good" sites predominantly used Liquid in Glass (LiG) thermometers housed in wooden shelters that were more easily located further from the buildings where the observers worked. Since the poorly-sites stations were dominantly equipped with MMTS thermometers, they tended to measure temperatures that were too cool, despite their poor siting.


Figure 3. Comparison of U.S. average annual (a) maximum and (b) minimum temperatures calculated using USHCN version 2 temperatures. Temperatures were adjusted to correct for changes in instrumentation, station relocations, and changes in the time of observation, making the trend from good sites show close agreement with poor sites. Good and poor site ratings are based on surfacestations.org. For comparison, the data between 2004 - 2008 taken by the new high-quality U.S. Climate Reference Network (USCRN, black dashed line) is shown, and displays excellent agreement for that time period. Image credit: Menne 2010.

Independent verification of recent USHCN annual temperatures
Clearly, the siting of many of the surface stations used to track climate change in the U.S. is not good. To address this issue, in 2004 NOAA created the U.S. Climate Reference Network, a collection of 114 stations in the continental United States for the express purpose of detecting the national signal of climate change. The stations were sited and instrumented with climate studies in mind, and can provide an extremely high-quality independent check on the old USHCN network. Each of 114 stations at 107 locations (some stations were installed as nearby pairs) is equipped with very accurate instruments in a triplicate configuration so that each measurement can be checked for internal consistency. As shown in Figure 3, the USCRN air temperature departures for 2004 - 2008 are extremely well aligned with those derived from the USHCN version 2 temperature data. For these five years, the the difference between the mean annual temperatures measured by the old USHCN compared to the new USCRN was just 0.03°C, with a mathematical correlation coefficient (r-squared) of 0.997. Menne et al. concluded, "This finding provides independent verification that the USHCN version 2 data are consistent with research-quality measurements taken at pristine locations and do not contain spurious trends during the recent past even if sampled exclusively at poorly sited stations. While admittedly this period of coincident observations between the networks is rather brief, the value of the USCRN as a benchmark for reducing the uncertainty of historic observations from the USHCN and other networks will only increase with time". The authors finally concluded, "we find no evidence that the CONUS temperature trends are inflated due to poor siting".

Crediting Anthony Watts
The surfacestations.org effort coordinated by Anthony Watts has made a valuable contribution to science, helping us better understand the nature of the errors in the U.S. historical temperature data set. In his talk last week at the AMS conference, and in the credits of his paper, Dr. Menne had some genuinely grateful comments on the efforts of Anthony Watts and the volunteers of surfacestations.org. However, as of this writing, Watts has made no mention on surfacestations.org or on wattsupwiththat.com of Dr. Menne's study.

I'll have a new post Wednesday or Thursday.

Jeff Masters

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Quoting hydrus:
Yes it was. I was living in S.W. Florida then. I will not type my feelings about 2004.


You mean 200*? :) (Was in Port Charlotte during Charley, I totally understand)
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And the Nurse's and Cars and Conventions in Milwaukee.

Home of the "Beast?" P-tooey, Blech, yuck...

I'll have what you're having, and thank you!
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Quoting Floodman:


atmo, you and I have had this "argument" before and I respect your opinions given your firm grounding in science and your even disposition, but even you say: "...there is so little we know about our climate..." I wonder how you can be so totally skeptical of the whole CC idea; if you admit we know very little about it, what makes the anti-CC side that much more convincing for you?

By the way, the little ice-age you mention was caused in large part by the eruption of Tambora in 1815; it caused the "year without a summer" in the northern hemisphere and caused a substantial drop in global temperature...

Personally, I take issue with those that portend to know what we do not. Simple as that.

And that applies to all of the if A, then B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I, and J, when A isn't well understood.

Additionally, in science, a numerical result with a standard deviation larger than half the magnitude of the values themselves is not acceptable. I myself had a paper rejected because of this. This scenario, however, fits with a fair portion of our long-term surface records, historical reconstructions, and supposed effects. On the short-term, as you are aware, the better datasets are too short to tell us much, especially when it comes to attribution.
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1126. hydrus
Quoting aquak9:
hi SSI! yes, back to flip-flops and a t-shirt.

Eeeek! in the upper thirties this week...it's all gravy after what we've already been thru.

Hydrus- '04 was horrid for Florida. Wouldn't wish it on anyone ever. Really, I shouldn't tempt fate.
Yes it was. I was living in S.W. Florida then. I will not type my feelings about 2004.
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The format of the Tropical Cyclone Public Advisory is changing for 2010

In order to improve the readability and utility of the Tropical Cyclone Public Advisory (TCP), the format of the product is changing in 2010. The most significant changes are:

The TCP will be organized into sections. Within these sections, keywords will be used to assist the human eye and computer software to find specific information more readily.

The summary (or "repeat") section of the advisory will move to the top of the product, immediately following the headline.

The summary section will contain more information than it did previously.

Watch and warning information will be organized differently and be presented in list or bullet form.
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1124. hydrus
Quoting StSimonsIslandGAGuy:
hydrus I know--I did a huge history of Georgia hurricanes on my blog last August, September, and October.

Hi aquak9 :) I think it is safe to come out now. Think you will freeze?
Georgia has had some strong hurricanes. They strike you after moving across the panhandle while still retaining a lot of strength. Not many strikes along the Atlantic shore because of the small amount of coastline.
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1123. aquak9
hi SSI! yes, back to flip-flops and a t-shirt.

Eeeek! in the upper thirties this week...it's all gravy after what we've already been thru.

Hydrus- '04 was horrid for Florida. Wouldn't wish it on anyone ever. Really, I shouldn't tempt fate.
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1122. hydrus
Quoting aquak9:


they don't hit Jacksonville, either, heh heh heh
We all know some day it will happen. he he he he . And it will be a big mess. Naturally I hope it does not.
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1120. aquak9
Quoting StSimonsIslandGAGuy:
But....but....but....everyone knows hurricanes don't hit Georgia! :P


they don't hit Jacksonville, either, heh heh heh
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2004 was an El Nino Modoki year. 2005 was a warm neutral year. Both years were active and devastating in the Atlantic basin, and it looks like 2010 will be a combination of the two factors, with Modoki El Nino and a disruption of global ocean currents.
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1118. hydrus
Quoting StSimonsIslandGAGuy:
But....but....but....everyone knows hurricanes don't hit Georgia! :P
It has been a while since yall had a direct hit. But Georgia has had plenty of bad weather.
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Quoting nrtiwlnvragn:
Georgia, Carolinas Most at Risk for Hurricane Hit, WSI Says

Jan. 26 (Bloomberg) -- The 2010 Atlantic hurricane season will be more active than last year, with the Georgia and Carolina coasts most at risk for a direct hit, forecaster WSI Corp. said today.

WSI’s outlook calls for 13 named storms, seven of them hurricanes and three of them of major, at Category 3 intensity or higher. There were nine named storms in 2009, the fewest in 12 years, and three of them became hurricanes.

“The previous five El Nino events have all been followed by significant increases in tropical activity the following summer,” he said. “Our current forecast numbers are more likely to be adjusted upwards rather than downwards as we get closer to the season.”


Hmm. What about New York City? Practically downstream from the Carolinas.
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1116. Greyelf
Quoting Tazmanian:
231-mph NH wind gust is no longer world's fastest

First the Old Man, now the Big Wind.

New Hampshire's Mount Washington has lost its distinction as the site of the fastest wind gust ever recorded on Earth, officials at the Mount Washington Observatory said Tuesday.

The concession came three days after the World Meteorological Organization posted a snippet on its Web site saying a panel of experts reviewing extreme weather and climate data turned up a 253 mph gust on Australia's Barrow Island during Cyclone Olivia in 1996.

That tops the 231 mph record set atop Mount Washington on April 12, 1934.

And... CycloneOz probably was there for both records standing outside with his handheld and taking video.


(Sorry for replying so late to this, but I had to add something I thought of when reading this as I was going back a few pages back to catch up...)
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Georgia, Carolinas Most at Risk for Hurricane Hit, WSI Says

Jan. 26 (Bloomberg) -- The 2010 Atlantic hurricane season will be more active than last year, with the Georgia and Carolina coasts most at risk for a direct hit, forecaster WSI Corp. said today.

WSI’s outlook calls for 13 named storms, seven of them hurricanes and three of them of major, at Category 3 intensity or higher. There were nine named storms in 2009, the fewest in 12 years, and three of them became hurricanes.

“The previous five El Nino events have all been followed by significant increases in tropical activity the following summer,” he said. “Our current forecast numbers are more likely to be adjusted upwards rather than downwards as we get closer to the season.”
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Woah! And it looks like we'll drop below -20C on the night of February 6 - 7:

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This is again 384 hours off, but it'll be interesting to see how this storm plays out for S. Ontario. If the storm stalls right over us due to the blocking high then we could see a record-breaker!

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1110. Skyepony (Mod)
CaneWarning~ Dr Masters' Ph.D. is in air pollution meteorology. Do you believe him when he say's how many people are killed & sickened by the air pollution from burning coal & oil each year, in the USA?
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Quoting Drakoen:
Climate models are forecasting for the ENSO to go to neutral for the 2010 Atlantic Hurricane Season. Sea-Surface temperature forecasts show above average temperatures in the MDR with the hottest spot being the Caribbean. The extent of the 26C isotherm is more widespread across the Atlantic Basin than in recent years which can be attributed to a strongly negative NAO slackening the tradewinds. Conditions favor an active Intertropical Convergence Zone and anomalously higher precipitation.


EUROSIP:


Notice that in the mid-Atlantic, the 20C isotherms are actually FLAT. This indicates a slowing of ocean currents.
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1108. hydrus
Quoting CaneWarning:
1094 & 1095, I guess we can agree to disagree. Let me also note that when Dr. Gray released his findings on the subject, many here rejected him because he was a tropical expert.
The fact that he is a tropical expert should be acknowledged, but to discount his opinion on Global Warming because he specializes in a certain area of meteorology is ridiculous . jmo
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1107. Patrap
It be gone..cool
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Quoting Drakoen:


It's probably the Glosea image which requires a password. I'll delete that one.


Thanks!
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1105. Drakoen
Quoting CaneWarning:
Drak, your post is causing some sort of popup.


It's probably the Glosea image which requires a password. I'll delete that one.
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1104. Patrap
[PDF]
Extended Range Forecast for Atlantic Hurricane Activity in 2010



Extended Range Forecast for Atlantic
Hurricane Activity in 2010
Issued: 7th December 2009
by Dr Adam Lea and Professor Mark Saunders
Aon Benfield UCL Hazard Research Centre, UCL (University College London), UK
Forecast Summary
TSR predicts an active Atlantic hurricane season in 2010. Users should note that the
precision of TSR’s extended range outlooks for Atlantic hurricane
activity between 1980 and 2009 is low.

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Drak, your post is causing some sort of popup.
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1102. Patrap


Dr Masters discussing Cyclone Nargis that struck Myanmar in 2008

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1101. Drakoen
Climate models are forecasting for the ENSO to go to neutral for the 2010 Atlantic Hurricane Season. Sea-Surface temperature forecasts show above average temperatures in the MDR with the hottest spot being the Caribbean. The extent of the 26C isotherm is more widespread across the Atlantic Basin than in recent years which can be attributed to a strongly negative NAO slackening the tradewinds. Conditions favor an active Intertropical Convergence Zone and anomalously higher precipitation.


EUROSIP:
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Quoting KEEPEROFTHEGATE:
how about this one


It is not that bad (pretty much current situation), but before everything turns into ashes the sceptics would stop argueing(for several reason).

I think we are at this point now. They wasted all their bullets.

Imagine a house which burns and someone constantly is fueling the fire.
The scientist says stop fueling the fire - and let's start blowing the flames out.

The denier says constantly, "no" - "no" it is not the fuel which is the cause of the fire - the scientist has it all wrong - don't you see this?

Other people in the room listen to both but they start to see the flames reaching through the walls, ceilings and doors and have problems breathing.

We have now reached the point where the people in the room are actualy starting to listen to the scientist.
Member Since: September 22, 2005 Posts: 11 Comments: 2032
Quoting HadesGodWyvern:
Fiji Metorological Services
Tropical Disturbance Summary
TROPICAL DEPRESSION 05F
9:00 AM FST January 27 2010
=============================================

At 21:00 PM UTC, Tropical Depression 05F (1000 hPa) located at 19.0S 174.5W is reported as moving southeast at 15 knots. Position POOR based on multisat visible with animation and peripheral observations. Sea surface temperature is around 30C.

Organization has slightly improved in the last 24 hours. Convection has not increased or deepened much. 05F lies to the south of the 250 HPA ridge axis region and along a monsoonal trough in a moderately sheared environment. Outflow good to the north but restricted elsewhere. Northwest deep layer mean winds is expected to steer TD 05F southeast into an area o decreasing shear in the next 24 hours

Most global models is slowly developing the system and move it southeast.

Potential for this disturbance to form into a significant tropical cyclone within the next 48 hours is MODERATE


That storm is heading out into the gap between the ENSO warm pool and the South Pacific warm anomaly. That alone is bad enough, and it will send more El Nino warmth into the Ross ice shelf. However, if it or its remnants make it to the Chilean southeastern tongue, what happens there is so bad that...well you don't wanna know.
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Quoting CaneWarning:
1094 & 1095, I guess we can agree to disagree. Let me also note that when Dr. Gray released his findings on the subject, many here rejected him because he was a tropical expert.


The other one is a climate skeptic and I think AGW exists. LOL.
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1097. Patrap
Do you have any Idea what those foot doctors make?

And no Tropical Modeling Tech to keep up with,...

And the Nurse's and Cars and Conventions in Milwaukee.
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1094 & 1095, I guess we can agree to disagree. Let me also note that when Dr. Gray released his findings on the subject, many here rejected him because he was a tropical expert.
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Quoting CaneWarning:
Since I've gotten a couple of emails about the topic, I'll bring it up here.

My comments earlier were in no way meant to disparage Dr. Masters in any way. He's a brilliant man and he knows a lot about tropical weather. I just wish he showed both sides of the coin instead of only using the side he agrees with. I know it's his blog and he can come on here and say that if we drink kool-aid we'll all cure global warming. I don't have to believe everything I read, even if it does come from a PhD. His expertise is tropical weather.

I wouldn't go to a foot doctor to ask him about my eye. Yeah, both are doctors, but one has expertise in the area another does not.

END RANT


One doesn't need to be an expert in climate to know about climate change. The issue is that important. And even seasoned scientists make mistakes.
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1094. hydrus
Quoting CaneWarning:
Since I've gotten a couple of emails about the topic, I'll bring it up here.

My comments earlier were in no way meant to disparage Dr. Masters in any way. He's a brilliant man and he knows a lot about tropical weather. I just wish he showed both sides of the coin instead of only using the side he agrees with. I know it's his blog and he can come on here and say that if we drink kool-aid we'll all cure global warming. I don't have to believe everything I read, even if it does come from a PhD. His expertise is tropical weather.

I wouldn't go to a foot doctor to ask him about my eye. Yeah, both are doctors, but one has expertise in the area another does not.

END RANT
I understand your point here. But his expertise in meteorology goes well beyond the tropics.
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1093. KEEPEROFTHEGATE (Mod)
Member Since: July 15, 2006 Posts: 178 Comments: 55984
1092. KEEPEROFTHEGATE (Mod)
Quoting drg0dOwnCountry:
Good take but you might have too add another 3 zero digits to the timespan ;/
how about this one

Member Since: July 15, 2006 Posts: 178 Comments: 55984
The southeastern part of the warm water toungue, producing the reformation of the El Nino-Humbodlt cut-off in Chile (near the location of the 1960 Valdivia earthquake), is now strengthening and moving southeast. The warmest water temperatures in this area stand at 3.5C above normal, and it is taking the combined energy of the ENSO warm pool and the South Pacific warm anomaly bulge. If the warm tounge reaches the Chilean coast, the Humbodlt could become completely cut off at its source, which did not happen the last time a similar scenario occured (in early January, with warmest anomalies in the tounge close to 1C and it came close to cutting off the current before it rebounded, yet it still managed to cause a 3C rise in temperatures at the cut-off zone in one week.

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Since I've gotten a couple of emails about the topic, I'll bring it up here.

My comments earlier were in no way meant to disparage Dr. Masters in any way. He's a brilliant man and he knows a lot about tropical weather. I just wish he showed both sides of the coin instead of only using the side he agrees with. I know it's his blog and he can come on here and say that if we drink kool-aid we'll all cure global warming. I don't have to believe everything I read, even if it does come from a PhD. His expertise is tropical weather.

I wouldn't go to a foot doctor to ask him about my eye. Yeah, both are doctors, but one has expertise in the area another does not.

END RANT
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Olga is back. I think it has the potential to turn into a category 4 (SSHS) cyclone before it makes landfall in the southwestern Gulf of Carpentaria.

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Quoting drg0dOwnCountry:
Good take but you might have too add another 3 zero digits to the timespan ;/


Actually, all there of those are possible in Australia (which is the place it looks like the picture was taken or edited from), within 15 years.
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Quoting Patrap:


Did anyone hear were going to da Super Bowl ?


Who dat?
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1086. HadesGodWyvern (Mod)
Fiji Metorological Services
Tropical Disturbance Summary
TROPICAL DEPRESSION 05F
9:00 AM FST January 27 2010
=============================================

At 21:00 PM UTC, Tropical Depression 05F (1000 hPa) located at 19.0S 174.5W is reported as moving southeast at 15 knots. Position POOR based on multisat visible with animation and peripheral observations. Sea surface temperature is around 30C.

Organization has slightly improved in the last 24 hours. Convection has not increased or deepened much. 05F lies to the south of the 250 HPA ridge axis region and along a monsoonal trough in a moderately sheared environment. Outflow good to the north but restricted elsewhere. Northwest deep layer mean winds is expected to steer TD 05F southeast into an area o decreasing shear in the next 24 hours

Most global models is slowly developing the system and move it southeast.

Potential for this disturbance to form into a significant tropical cyclone within the next 48 hours is MODERATE
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Evening everyone. I'm working from home tonight, so I'm not likely to be in here constantly. Wish I had the time to read through all the discussion since last night - 1000+ posts on the blog at the end of January!

Quoting Floodman:


That's incredible...Haitains have a hard bark on 'em, that's for sure!
They've had to, haven't they? :o) This is some good news for at least one family, and must have been very uplifting to the workers who would have been energized by the discovery....
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Okay, kids...I'm out...

Remember Portlight, serving the disabled surviors of disasters; we have made some substantial strides in Haiti and we need your help!
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Indian makes molecule suck carbon dioxide

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1100123/jsp/nation/story_12019003.jsp
Member Since: September 22, 2005 Posts: 11 Comments: 2032
As a reader of Anthony Watts I can tell you why he doesn't comment on the study you mention. There is no disagreement about what temperatures were doing in the last 30 years although when you get to composite ad hoc compilations that reach further back or forward there is a lot of disagreement. So modern high tech temperature measurements doesn't really tell us anything yet. The satelite information is just getting useful.

As an engineer, I side with the solar forcing theories and skeptics like Willy Soon. For medium term cycles I like Landscheidt and variations of the Planetary Tidal influences on Solar Activity. As a side note, Watts dislikes and refuses to give print to this theory as well, preferring a more direct solar influence and newer theories about energy transport or the solar wind/magnetosphere/cloud/cosmic ray line of enquiry.

I think the paleo temperature record bears out my suspicions as well. It's all about the Sun, and ocean influences as Joe Bastardi and the successful AO blocking predictions that embarrassed modellers over Christmas.

Politically, the selection of stations is probably the bigger story right now as Joseph D'Aleo has illustrated. The noise outside North America has been the Himilayan Glacier exaggeration. For me, I'm just watching this Solar Grand Minimum unfold and Weather Underground has the tools to do it.
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Quoting charlottefl:
I'm gonna chime in here, and this is not my argument FOR or AGAINST GW. It's an observation. Micro scale atmospheric events such as tornadoes, hurricanes, severe storms challenge us in their complexity. There is still much we don't understand about these events, and that's on a micro scale. To take such a concrete position on macro climate events that involve the mechanisms that drive our global climate, to say that we are CERTAIN of what is driving our apparent change in climate, and to ignore healthy discussion on the subject is presumptuous at best. I'm not saying to just AGREE with each other, just being willing to listen to the other point of view.(regardless of which side you fall on) It will benefit everyone.


Ahhh...a reasoned voice...be careful here; you could be severly pummeled (I have)

Your points are good and echo my own...
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1079. Patrap


Im keeping one eye on the Miami meteogram for Feb 7th


Did anyone hear were going to da Super Bowl ?
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Jeff co-founded the Weather Underground in 1995 while working on his Ph.D. He flew with the NOAA Hurricane Hunters from 1986-1990.

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