2000s: hottest decade on record; dangerous blizzard pounds Midwest

By: Dr. Jeff Masters , 3:33 PM GMT on December 09, 2009

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The end of the decade is upon us, and this decade was the warmest decade on record, according to NOAA and the World Meteorological Organization (WMO). The decade of the 2000s was 0.17°C (0.31°F) warmer than the 1990s, according to NOAA. The "official" scientific assessments on climate change, the IPCC reports, have been predicting that Earth's temperature rise should average about 0.19°C per decade, due to human-caused global warming. Thus, the warming over the past decade is about 10% below predictions--well within the uncertainties that natural variation in the climate can bring. Of course, one can look at shorter time periods and say that no warming is occurring. The hottest year on record globally was 1998, according to the UK's HadCRUT3 data set, and was 2005, according to the data sets maintained by NASA and NOAA. It is apparent from the plot of global temperature anomalies (Figure 1) that the global temperature rise has flattened out since 2005. One can correctly say that global temperatures have not increased since 2005. However, climate is measured on time scales of decades, so it is incorrect to say that the climate has not warmed since 2005. It is meaningless to any statement about climate on any time scale less than ten years. Thirty years is better, since the atmosphere has natural multi-decadal oscillations, and the solar cycle of 11 years is also important. Global average temperature oscillates 0.1°C between the maximum and minimum of the solar cycle, and we are currently in an unusually long minimum.


Figure 1. Change in global surface temperature anomaly as computed by NOAA (NCDC Dataset), NASA (GISS data set) and combined Hadley Center and Climate Research Unit of the University of East Anglia (UK) (HadCRUT3 data set). Uncertainty in the HadCRUT3 data is shown in gray. Image credit: WMO.

Mass front-page climate change editorial published in 45 countries
An unprecedented joint editorial urging action on climate change appeared in 56 newspapers in 45 countries yesterday. Many of the papers carried the editorial on the front page. The editorial began: "Unless we combine to take decisive action, climate change will ravage our planet, and with it our prosperity and security. The dangers have been becoming apparent for a generation. Now the facts have started to speak: 11 of the past 14 years have been the warmest on record, the Arctic ice-cap is melting and last year's inflamed oil and food prices provide a foretaste of future havoc. In scientific journals the question is no longer whether humans are to blame, but how little time we have got left to limit the damage. Yet so far the world's response has been feeble and half-hearted.". According to Editor & Publisher, the editorial was published in 20 languages including Chinese, Arabic and Russian. The text was drafted by the UK newspaper, The Guardian, in conjunction with editors from more than 20 of the papers involved. A number of U.S. papers supported the project and agreed with everything in the editorial, but only one--the Miami Herald--was brave enough to publish it.

Posts on the hacked climate scientists' emails
If you haven't read my posts on the hacked email affair, my attitude on the matter can best be summed up by a highly amusing political cartoon by Houston Chronicle cartoonist Nick Anderson. While an investigation is needed into whether the scientific data involved was properly withheld from other scientists, there is nothing in the hacked emails that affects the validity of any of the published peer-reviewed science on climate change. "Climategate" is a manufactured scandal designed to take attention away from the scientific consensus that human-caused global warming is responsible for most of the observed warming in recent decades, and that this warming will increase dramatically in coming decades. My posts on the affair:

Don't shoot the messenger
Embattled UK climate scientist steps down
The Manufactured Doubt industry and the hacked email controversy
Is more CO2 beneficial for Earth's ecosystems?

Ricky Rood in Copenhagen
Our Climate Change expert, Dr. Ricky Rood, is in Copenhagen for the COP15 climate change summit. Check out his blog over the next two weeks to hear an insider's view of what's going on.

Major winter storm blasts the Plains and Western U.S.
It's a bad day to be in Iowa, unless you happen to be a polar bear. I'll back up that startling claim with some hard data: at 4:35 am CST, Carroll, Iowa reported heavy snow, sustained winds of 38 mph, gusting to 48, visibility 350 yards, a temperature of 9°F, and a windchill of -17°F. The mighty storm responsible was centered over Lake Michigan this morning, and is bringing blizzard conditions to Iowa, Minnesota, Wisconsin, and northern Michigan. The storm has brought very high winds to large portion of the country. Sustained winds of 53 mph, gusting to 77 mph were reported in Ruidiso, New Mexico yesterday afternoon, and hurricane-force wind gusts were reported in Arizona, New Mexico, and Texas yesterday. A peak gust of 105 mph was reported in Texas' Guadeloupe Mountains. Heavy rain from the storm has also brought localized flooding to California, Arizona, and Louisiana.

Some snow amounts from the storm so far (with distances in miles from the city included, where appropriate):

...ARIZONA...
FLAGSTAFF 7.8 SSW 30.4
JACOB LAKE 24.0
WILLIAMS 0.4 SW 20.0
GRAND CANYON SOUTH RIM 18.0

...CALIFORNIA...
KIRKWOOD SKI AREA 48.0
ALPINE MEADOWS 45.0
SODA SPRINGS 40.0
KINGVALE 1.3 WSW 37.0
NORTHSTAR 36.0
CISCO 5 ENE 35.0
SOUTH LAKE TAHOE 8 SSW 31.0
MAMMOTH LAKES 14.0

...COLORADO...
PAGOSA SPRINGS 9.1 NNW 33.0
CARBONDALE 8.2 S 24.8
CRESTED BUTTE 6.2 N 24.5
DURANGO 24.0
BAYFIELD 7 N 23.5
DOLORES 22 NE 23.0
GREELEY 2.3 SE 22.0
PAGOSA SPRINGS 3 SE 22.0

...IDAHO...
WESTON 4.0
POCATELLO AIRPORT 3.7
BOISE 6.7 SE 3.5

...KANSAS...
MARYSVILLE 14.0
LINCOLN 5 NE 12.0
CONCORDIA 5 SSE 11.0
HAYS 13 WNW 9.0
SALINA 8.0
ABILENE 5 SSW 7.0
MANHATTAN 7.0

...NEBRASKA...
TECUMSEH 13.5
ORD 12.0
OMAHA 3 N 8.6
KEARNEY 8.0
INDIANOLA 6.0

...NEW MEXICO...
LAS VEGAS 8.4 NW 8.0
SANTA FE 3.3 NE 5.5
TAOS PUEBLO 2.8 NW 5.2
GALLUP 8.1 NNW 4.8

...NEVADA...
HEAVENLY VALLEY 34.0
MT ROSE SKI AREA 23.0
CARSON CITY 1.3 NW 18.0
RENO 7.1 N 13.7
SUN VALLEY 0.9 N 10.5

...SOUTH DAKOTA...
SIOUX FALLS 6.0

...UTAH...
VERDUE 8 WNW 25.0
SPRINGDELL 23.0
ORDERVILLE 19.0
SPRINGVILLE 10.0

...WYOMING...
SAND LAKE 11.0
DIVIDE PEAK 9.0
LARAMIE 27.3 WSW 6.0
CHEYENNE 26.7 NE 4.3

Next post
I'll have a new post Thursday; there's a lot going on.

Jeff Masters

Snow in Angels Camp. (Isolino)
Woke up this morning to snow. We don't get snow in Angels Camp very often. It made for some difficult driving.
Snow in Angels Camp.
Frost (thebige)
More frost on our car. This photo wasn't cropped or edited.
Frost

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Quoting atmoaggie:
found it.

http://www.climatedepot.com/a/4369/Hurricane-Expert-Rips-Climate-Fears-There-has-been-an-unrelentin g-quarter-century-of-onesided-indoctrination


You rock, don't care what Grothar says about you (j/k, I agree with him)!
Member Since: August 19, 2008 Posts: 32 Comments: 1918
Quoting CaneWarning:


I think many of the oil companies are already investing in alternative energy sources. I think we should also be looking to our auto industry to create vehicles that don't require oil. As long as there are cars that need oil, the oil industry is more than happy to sell it to us.


I'm sure the oil lobby has something to do with why we have mostly gas burning vehicles here in the US. The funny thing is there are 18 models of GM vehicles that will run on natural gas but none of them are sold in the US. I wonder why that is? If the oil companies were working so feverishly on alternative energies you can bet it'd be publicized, especially since you can expect them to be more expensive, meaning more profit. The money they spend on alternative energy is a pittance. They also are engaging in "greenwashing" but that's another story entirely.
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Quoting NRAamy:
We need the other nations of the world locked arm in arm with us on this issue before it will truly be effective.

ok, fine..as long as I don't have to lock arms with France...well, maybe if they agree to stock up on Right Guard....


OK, on this one I have to correct you. There is a reason why French perfumes are considered the best (and most expensive) in the world. I don't think I've ever been to a place that was so conscientious about body odor. The smell of perfumes and deodorants there can be overwhelming.

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Member Since: August 22, 2008 Posts: 12 Comments: 6010
Quoting hurricanejunky:


I understand all of these points you've made.
I don't think with the millions of C02 emission sources in the world that it's really a stretch or has to be considered "emotional" that C02 release into the atmosphere is ridiculous. Of course that is my opinion.


well, the point i was trying to make was that if the "problem" is approached with an preconceived notion like "there has to be an effect", you most likely will find one whether it exists or not. i deal with lots of real data everyday and i can usually make it tell any story i want it to. that's the unfortunate thing about data...it doesn't withstand torture worth a flip :) it will tell you anything you want to know with a little arm twist...

:)
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Quoting NRAamy:
We need the other nations of the world locked arm in arm with us on this issue before it will truly be effective.

ok, fine..as long as I don't have to lock arms with France...well, maybe if they agree to stock up on Right Guard....


LOL. Though I would prefer they shower first before using DEGREE for Men. Right-Guard over body odor, ugh.

Does Beano work for Big Mac emissions? Don't know if Beano works on carnivore gaseous pollution...
Member Since: August 19, 2008 Posts: 32 Comments: 1918
Quoting hurricanejunky:


I understand all of these points you've made.
I don't think with the millions of C02 emission sources in the world that it's really a stretch or has to be considered "emotional" that C02 release into the atmosphere is ridiculous. Of course that is my opinion.


We have to be careful about reducing C02 emissions to much, because if oxygen levels climb the insects will start doubling in size and theyll take over. =)
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Quoting NRAamy:
We need the other nations of the world locked arm in arm with us on this issue before it will truly be effective.

ok, fine..as long as I don't have to lock arms with France...well, maybe if they agree to stock up on Right Guard....
Quoting presslord:
she is the navigator when we sail...her contention is that the navigator is the only person allowed to tell the Capitain where to go...
You got it good my friend!!! My other half proclaims to be the navigator of life in this home. And Amy, rumor has that shaving were the rightgard goes is infrequent at best on the females also.
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Quoting pearlandaggie:


of course we have an effect on the climate. land use changes and urbanization have definitely warmed the population centers (where most of the climate stations tend to be concentrated). aerosols also have an effect...otherwise, large volcanic eruptions would be of little consequence globally. no one is really saying that these aren't the case.



while a large amount, you might actually be surprised how little CO2 comes from anthropogenic sources. recent studies indicate that the anthropogenic component of CO2 increases is on the order of 10-20% of the total.



i'm not being critical, but do you realize that this is more of an emotional response than a data driven one? i mean, afterall, you're entitled to that opinion...i was just pointing it out in case you hadn't considered it before.

:)


I understand all of these points you've made.
I don't think with the millions of C02 emission sources in the world that it's really a stretch or has to be considered "emotional" that C02 release into the atmosphere is ridiculous. Of course that is my opinion.
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Let's hope all these Brains can show how smart they really are.
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Quoting CaneWarning:


I saw the copy and pasted version, but was never able to find a link. I googled it and everything and still didn't get a link.


I googled - Dr. William Gray climategate - and could not find anything from AP, UPI, or any source like that. Didn't recognize any of the sources, and they seemed to be repeating what was printed at WorldNetDaily, which at first glance seems to be an extreme right wing web site.
Member Since: August 22, 2008 Posts: 12 Comments: 6010
Quoting CaneWarning:


I saw the copy and pasted version, but was never able to find a link. I googled it and everything and still didn't get a link.


You get "extra credit" for that. I'd WU-mail him whatever you got...he's got interns...at least I hope so! (I've already done my time in broadcasting intern hell!!)
Member Since: August 19, 2008 Posts: 32 Comments: 1918
Quoting Skyepony:
Atmo~ No one is forcing me to Eat a Big Mac.. I really don't have much a choice when it comes to breathing.

Moving toward an end of excessive adding of CO2 to the atmosphere would clean up so many cancer alleys, seeps & fix many other problems we face. I don't understand the motivation to hone on one reason we should & continually try to stall by discrediting that then move forward.

No, I don't think so. We will still be using plastics, making paint, manufacturing light bulbs, wood stains, making paper, making roofing materials etc.
Our understanding has evolved to find the most cost effective, reliable, resilient, etc. materials, which has a lot to do with the standard of living we enjoy. Most of them do involve nasty toxins. CO2 policy will not change that one bit. This is where we should be working to improve. That and watershed issues. And deforestation. And large-scale litter (think the Texas-sized plastic area in the middle of the Pacific gyre). And particulate pollution controls from diesel engines (everywhere) and from smokestacks where regulation does not exist (Asia). And further sulfur removal from all fuels (leads to SO2, leads to H2SO4). And urban sprawl.

I don't think the accountant that drives an empty F350 45 miles one way to his job downtown in a major metro area is any smarter than you do. We do agree on a lot, and I do understand why you ask these question of me.

The seeps I mentioned are entirely natural. Oil bubbles out of the ocean floor right off the coast of California - 24/7. In a year's time, more oil from that than any human spills. Granted there are some places where the wildlife suffers greatly in the presence of a spill and years pass before it all makes a comeback.

My motivation for having confidence in a scientific conclusion? Umm. How do I answer that? It is just what I know and expect from science. There is no such word allowable as "maybe", "could", or "might", or even "likely" when it comes to anything earth science (IMO) except a forecast ;-)
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I have to say the blog is really enjoyable today and we seem to be flowing right along without figure pointing. hopefully it stays this way. I knew we could talk about important issues without bickering.
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We need the other nations of the world locked arm in arm with us on this issue before it will truly be effective.

ok, fine..as long as I don't have to lock arms with France...well, maybe if they agree to stock up on Right Guard....
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Quoting CaneWarning:


I do agree that we put too much CO2 in the atmosphere. Why can't this whole discussion be more about being a better steward of the environment? I think the division comes when they start talking about taxes, and making it a political thing.


Exactly.
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Quoting hurricanejunky:


Preach on sister AIM! +1

You're too funny!

"Oh Lord please don't let me be misunderstood."

-- The Animals

(showing my age...I bought in on vinyl)

Member Since: August 19, 2008 Posts: 32 Comments: 1918
Quoting StormChaser81:


Even if America made great strides to reduce CO2 amounts and stop polluting, I'm thinking it will take other countries a long time to catch up to American green thinking. I mean what is the UN or US going to do if china or other countries dont stop polluting, Are we going to fine them, which doesnt change anything for the earth, theyll pay and say we start next year. This has to be a globe event and I just dont see the whole world jumping on board when going green will cost lost of money. IMO


I am in 100% agreement with that. It has to start somewhere though. All things being equal, what's wrong with trying to cut down on our own emissions considering we're in the top 3? If we expect others to do the same, we'll need to lead by example. Again, I do agree with you on this point. We need the other nations of the world locked arm in arm with us on this issue before it will truly be effective.
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Quoting pearlandaggie:
270. oh, my! LOL


I've heard there were pictures!
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Quoting Skyepony:
Canada's image lies in tatters. It is now to climate what Japan is to whaling

Interesting article.

PRESENTATION ON CANADA TAR SANDS
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Quoting CaneWarning:


Who wears the dress in your family? If I remember correctly, it was you. :P


LOL!
Member Since: June 28, 2006 Posts: 24 Comments: 8185
Quoting hurricanejunky:


Preach on sister AIM! +1


Wouldn't it have been nice if both sides of that coin were allowed to be presented?
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she is the navigator when we sail...her contention is that the navigator is the only person allowed to tell the Capitain where to go...
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Quoting hurricanejunky:


If you drive a gasoline powered vehicle then the oil companies are running the show. If we would all make a concerted effort to get off of gasoline I think we'd start sending a good message to the oil companies. Maybe they could take a few billion of their ridiculous profits and use it for alternative energies that would make them even more money than they currently make with petroleum. It would also make them the good guys at the same time! What a concept!


Thats a really good idea, if the oil companies took profits and started investing into wind power, solar power, and thermal power. Atleast when we do start running out of inexpensive fuel, they would still have the power and good for them if they run the show with clean energy. Im waiting for something to come out that is not slow as h*ll and has huge amounts of money to up keep. If something was available at a decent price Id buy it in a heart beat, but im still waiting and waiting, we have the ideas and prototypes, lets make the one more step and get it to the public.


I mean really, the more i get older the more I feel like American is slowly getting ran over by other countries and im scared to think if that happens what America will be like in 20-30 years from now. I'm glad we dont live to 200 years old becuase you would see a huge change in the way we live. Better or worse, but sadly probably worse.
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270. oh, my! LOL
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Quoting presslord:
Yup...God knows...I've been wrong before...if you don't think so, just ask my wife...


Who wears the dress in your family? If I remember correctly, it was you. :P
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Yup...God knows...I've been wrong before...if you don't think so, just ask my wife...
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Quoting AwakeInMaryland:
The boss asked a question; did someone WU-mail him? Sorry I don't know, but I know there were posters in here earlier that had read it:

I'll talk about Bill Gray tomorrow--his forecasts for the 2010 hurricane season, and for global warming. What is the URL of the blog post he did that I should look at?

Jeff Masters


I saw the copy and pasted version, but was never able to find a link. I googled it and everything and still didn't get a link.
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260. nah, it bounces off me...and makes me chuckle. we'll see who turns out to be the F/E crowd. i will gladly eat my crow and admit error if i'm wrong :) i just wonder if the Geocentric crowd will be willing to do the same! LMAO
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The boss asked a question; did someone WU-mail him? Sorry I don't know, but I know there were posters in here earlier that had read it:

I'll talk about Bill Gray tomorrow--his forecasts for the 2010 hurricane season, and for global warming. What is the URL of the blog post he did that I should look at?

Jeff Masters
Member Since: August 19, 2008 Posts: 32 Comments: 1918
Quoting AwakeInMaryland:


I thought I was saying nearly the opposite...
pretty much the same as I don't care if you're Democrat or a Republican in helping people after Disasters! And I don't care if you're Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, Atheist, Agnostic...whichever...as long as you're tolerant of others and trying to keep your own little corner of the globe clean.

What I wrote, shortened for readability, but MEANING NOT CHANGED.

Guess it should have been an Environment Repairing/Pollution Reduction Conference in Copenhagen instead.
Both crowds would still have been there -- maybe some decent compromises could have been hammered out, with a decent, albeit not visionary, outcome.


Preach on sister AIM! +1
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Quoting hurricanejunky:


If you drive a gasoline powered vehicle then the oil companies are running the show. If we would all make a concerted effort to get off of gasoline I think we'd start sending a good message to the oil companies. Maybe they could take a few billion of their ridiculous profits and use it for alternative energies that would make them even more money than they currently make with petroleum. It would also make them the good guys at the same time! What a concept!


I think many of the oil companies are already investing in alternative energy sources. I think we should also be looking to our auto industry to create vehicles that don't require oil. As long as there are cars that need oil, the oil industry is more than happy to sell it to us.
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Quoting hurricanejunky:


I have to say that we agree on most everything except the fact that I think we have some sort of an effect on global warming. To me the jury is still out on how much.


of course we have an effect on the climate. land use changes and urbanization have definitely warmed the population centers (where most of the climate stations tend to be concentrated). aerosols also have an effect...otherwise, large volcanic eruptions would be of little consequence globally. no one is really saying that these aren't the case.

Quoting hurricanejunky:


Do you realize how much C02 we pump into the atmosphere globally? It's incomprehensible.


while a large amount, you might actually be surprised how little CO2 comes from anthropogenic sources. recent studies indicate that the anthropogenic component of CO2 increases is on the order of 10-20% of the total.

Quoting hurricanejunky:


There HAS to be some sort of an effect from that.


i'm not being critical, but do you realize that this is more of an emotional response than a data driven one? i mean, afterall, you're entitled to that opinion...i was just pointing it out in case you hadn't considered it before.

:)
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Quoting StormChaser81:


By that time theyll own us and just tells us to pay up or shut up, in short words.


Other countries already own us...Americans just don't know it yet.
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Quoting CaneWarning:


It's not just the oil companies that run the show. All big business runs the show. But, lets not forget they also employ most of us too.


If you drive a gasoline powered vehicle then the oil companies are running the show. If we would all make a concerted effort to get off of gasoline I think we'd start sending a good message to the oil companies. Maybe they could take a few billion of their ridiculous profits and use it for alternative energies that would make them even more money than they currently make with petroleum. It would also make them the good guys at the same time! What a concept!
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btw...you should all notice that atmo and pearland and I are not necessarily on the same page on this...yet we maintain very nice online relationships...pretty important lesson there...although pearland DOES get a bit wrapped around the axle at my use of "Flat Earthers" ; )
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Quoting atmoaggie:


(Hehe) Maybe we could convince China to write off some of the money we owe them in that scenario...yeah, right.


By that time theyll own us and just tells us to pay up or shut up, in short words.
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There is a yet no "proof" that these e-mails were "hacked". It is just as likely, and some say even more so that this was a "whistle-blower" that released this info. Saying it was hacked sounds better for the believers, because it casts doubts on the side of the "unbelievers" of this religion. It must be a religion, since it rests on belief & faith rather than verifiable, reproduceable facts, which is a requirement in order to be scientific.
257. JeffMasters (Admin)
Quoting hcubed:
"It is apparent from the plot of global temperature anomalies (Figure 1) that the global temperature rise has flattened out since 2005. One can correctly say that global temperatures have not increased since 2005. However, climate is measured on time scales of decades, so it is incorrect to say that the climate has not warmed since 2005.

It would, however, be correct to say that the CO2 concentrations saw no such "flattening" over the same time period. So how can increasing CO2 since 2005 cause a global temperature rise that has flattened out since 2005?


Natural years-long or deacades-long atmospheric patterns such as El Niño/La Niña, the Pacific Decadal Oscillation, etc, have large impacts on the global temperature that can temporarily mask the long-term warming from CO2. In particular, we had La Niña conditions during much of 2007, 2008, and 2009 that cooled global surface temperatures, plus we've been at solar minimum the past few years.

A network of probes called the Argo network is able to dive deep in the ocean to depths of 2000 meters and measure the heat content of the oceans. According to von Shuckmann, Gaillard, and Le Traon (2009), in their paper "Global hydrographic variability patterns during 2003-2008", the total heat content of the oceans has continued to increase since 2005, even though the surface temperatures have remained flat. So, this research suggests that the planet continues to warm, but the heat is going into the deep ocean, not the surface.


Figure 1. Total heat storage of the global oceans, as measured by the Argo network. Image credit: von Schuckmann, K., F. Gaillard, and P.-Y. Le Traon (2009), "Global hydrographic variability patterns during 2003-2008", J. Geophys. Res., 114, C09007, doi:10.1029/2008JC005237.

I'll talk about Bill Gray tomorrow--his forecasts for the 2010 hurricane season, and for global warming. What is the URL of the blog post he did that I should look at?

Jeff Masters
Quoting atmoaggie:

Something like 85%?

BUT, a lot of small businesses are in industries that are contracted to do work directly FOR the big businesses.

Let us not forget the indirect employment...


Ok, this is what I was trying to say, you just said it much better.
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Quoting atmoaggie:


Yeah, that tar sands thing is really nasty. Oil spills? Well, oil seeps, too.

Look, I despise killing dolphins to commercially catch tuna, too. I despise OPEC. We can, should, and will have a viable, reliable, and cost effective alternative to petroleum in 30 years (?). Right now we do not.

I am the first one to blame industry on an area here in SE LA coined Cancer Alley, a stretch of refineries, chemical plants, etc. from south of NOLA to Baton Rouge where there is a higher than normal cancer rate.

But, I am an earth science guy first and foremost. And my understanding of the state of the science is that we cannot claim to know that CO2 is an actual problem nor what, if any, portion of measured trends can be attributed to it's changing concentration.

My personal understanding and interpretation of available data says that CO2 being bandied about as a "dangerous" gas is destroying the environmental attentions that should be going to some of the conditions you point out. We should be solving Cancer Alley. We should be very heavily penalizing industries that emit toxins. We should be monitoring for these toxins far more than we are and the industries should be paying for the monitoring.

The doubt I interject? I demand good and complete consideration of all factors. If the data [edit, dang]: cannot support the conclusion, then the conclusion is suspect and should not be counted as fact.

A somewhat goofy corollary: No one is going to tell you that a Big Mac is good for you, but what if we conduct a study that says eating a Big Mac and automobile accident fatalities were related? They correlate well. Of course, no one should eat a Big Mac (well, not many or often, anyway) but we would not be demanding legislation to phase out Big Macs based on that correlation alone, would we? (when actually it is greasy fingers causing the accidents!)

IMO, that is the state of climate-CO2 science. It ties in somehow. It correlates to temperature. The actual effect is thus far indecipherable against the backdrop natural changes and anthropogenic changes in land use.


Great post.
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Quoting presslord:


with all due respect...that's incorrect...small business (under $100 million gross annual revenue)...employs the vast majority of us...I don't recall the exact figures...but it's pretty staggering...


I don't think so. Where would the small business be without the big businesses? I saw a study recently that showed the big business kept thousands of small business open. I wish I could remember where. You may be right that more are employed by small business, but the big businesses are a driver of small business too.
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Quoting StormChaser81:


Even if America made great strides to reduce CO2 amounts and stop polluting, I'm thinking it will take other countries a long time to catch up to American green thinking. I mean what is the UN or US going to do if china or other countries dont stop polluting, Are we going to fine them


(Hehe) Maybe we could convince China to write off some of the money we owe them in that scenario...yeah, right.
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252. Skyepony (Mod)
Atmo~ No one is forcing me to Eat a Big Mac.. I really don't have much a choice when it comes to breathing.

Moving toward an end of excessive adding of CO2 to the atmosphere would clean up so many cancer alleys, seeps & fix many other problems we face. I don't understand the motivation to hone on one reason we should & continually try to stall by discrediting that then move forward.
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Quoting hurricanejunky:


Cane, we've had our differences on certain things but we've also got common ground too.
I have to say that we agree on most everything except the fact that I think we have some sort of an effect on global warming. To me the jury is still out on how much. Do you realize how much C02 we pump into the atmosphere globally? It's incomprehensible. There HAS to be some sort of an effect from that. If only all of us could agree on as much as we do, the world would be a much better place.


I do agree that we put too much CO2 in the atmosphere. Why can't this whole discussion be more about being a better steward of the environment? I think the division comes when they start talking about taxes, and making it a political thing.
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Famous weather scientist: Climategate 'tip of iceberg'
'Conspiracy would become manifest' if all climate research e-mails unveiled
By Bob Unruh© 2009 WorldNetDaily

The Colorado scientist described by the Washington Post as "the World's Most Famous Hurricane Expert" says the "ClimateGate" e-mails from the United Kingdom that revealed possible data manipulation are evidence of a conspiracy among "warmists," those who believe man's actions are triggering possibly catastrophic climate change.

"The recent 'ClimateGate' revelations coming out of the UK University of East Anglia are but the tip of a giant iceberg of a well organized international climate warming conspiracy that has been gathering momentum for the last 25 years," said Colorado State University's Dr. William Gray.

His are the annual hurricane forecasts that are the standard for weather prognostications.

His work pioneered the science of forecasting hurricanes and he has served as weather forecaster for the United States Air Force.

He is Emeritus Professor of Atmospheric Science at CSU and heads the school's Department of Atmospheric Sciences Tropical Meteorology Project.

He was referring to e-mails and other information that had been obtained by a hacker and posted on a Russian web server that included e-mails among scientists who are part of the cadre of researchers who believe man-made global warming is an impending catastrophe for the world.

One e-mail said: "I've just completed Mike's Nature trick of adding in the real temps to each series for the last 20 years (ie from 1981 onwards) amd (sic) from 1961 for Keith's to hide the decline."


It would appear the the term 'denialist' is more appropriately applied to the followers of The Church of the IPCC/AGW.

Their walls are beginning to crumble, look for them to scurry to the tall grass real soon.


Member Since: October 10, 2008 Posts: 0 Comments: 716
Quoting hurricanejunky:


Cane, we've had our differences on certain things but we've also got common ground too.
I have to say that we agree on most everything except the fact that I think we have some sort of an effect on global warming. To me the jury is still out on how much. Do you realize how much C02 we pump into the atmosphere globally? It's incomprehensible. There HAS to be some sort of an effect from that. If only all of us could agree on as much as we do, the world would be a much better place.


Even if America made great strides to reduce CO2 amounts and stop polluting, I'm thinking it will take other countries a long time to catch up to American green thinking. I mean what is the UN or US going to do if china or other countries dont stop polluting, Are we going to fine them, which doesnt change anything for the earth, theyll pay and say we start next year. This has to be a globe event and I just dont see the whole world jumping on board when going green will cost lost of money. IMO
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Quoting trinigal:


So, in your opinion, one can not be an environmentalist and, at the same time, doubt that we have any significant influence on climate patterns?


I thought I was saying nearly the opposite...
pretty much the same as I don't care if you're Democrat or a Republican in helping people after Disasters! And I don't care if you're Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, Atheist, Agnostic...whichever...as long as you're tolerant of others and trying to keep your own little corner of the globe clean.

What I wrote, shortened for readability, but MEANING NOT CHANGED.

Guess it should have been an Environment Repairing/Pollution Reduction Conference in Copenhagen instead.
Both crowds would still have been there -- maybe some decent compromises could have been hammered out, with a decent, albeit not visionary, outcome.
Member Since: August 19, 2008 Posts: 32 Comments: 1918
Quoting presslord:


with all due respect...that's incorrect...small business (under $100 million gross annual revenue)...employs the vast majority of us...I don't recall the exact figures...but it's pretty staggering...

Something like 85%?

BUT, a lot of small businesses are in industries that are contracted to do work directly FOR the big businesses.

Let us not forget the indirect employment...
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Quoting CaneWarning:


It's not just the oil companies that run the show. All big business runs the show. But, lets not forget they also employ most of us too.


with all due respect...that's incorrect...small business (under $100 million gross annual revenue)...employs the vast majority of us...I don't recall the exact figures...but it's pretty staggering...
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Quoting CaneWarning:


Yes, all those who do not agree are overlooked. I think I must be the only Obama voting Democrat who doesn't think humans cause global warming.


Cane, we've had our differences on certain things but we've also got common ground too.
I have to say that we agree on most everything except the fact that I think we have some sort of an effect on global warming. To me the jury is still out on how much. Do you realize how much C02 we pump into the atmosphere globally? It's incomprehensible. There HAS to be some sort of an effect from that. If only all of us could agree on as much as we do, the world would be a much better place.
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Jeff co-founded the Weather Underground in 1995 while working on his Ph.D. He flew with the NOAA Hurricane Hunters from 1986-1990.