Record -50°F confirmed for Maine; is this inconsistent with global warming?

By: Dr. Jeff Masters , 1:41 PM GMT on February 13, 2009

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The lowest temperature ever recorded in the state of Maine, a -50°F reading taken on January 16, has been confirmed as real, according to a press release issued by the U.S. Geological Survey (USGS) and National Weather Service this week. The new record occurred at 7:15 a.m. Jan. 16 at a remote river gauge in Big Black River (see USGS image at right), about four miles from the Canadian border. It ties the record set in 1933 for New England's lowest temperature, set at Bloomfield, Vermont. The old Maine record was -48°F, set in 1925 at Van Buren. All-time state records are difficult to break. The last time a state record low was set occurred January 5, 1999, when Congerville, Illinois recorded -36°F. Only one state record high temperature has been set in the past the decade--the 120°F temperature measured in Usta, South Dakota on July 15, 2006.

All-time record lows are inconsistent with global warming, right?
An impressive cold wave hit the northern and eastern portions of the U.S. January 11-18, with 17 states reporting record daily lows. In addition to the coldest temperature ever measured in Maine, one station, Waterloo, Iowa, tied its 1962 record for all-time coldest temperature, when the mercury hit -34°F on January 16. If global warming is occurring, we should not expect to see very many all-time city or state records being set. The nation's January-December average temperature has increased at a rate of 0.12°F per decade since 1895, and at a faster rate of 0.41°F per decade during the last 50 years. This 2°F rise in temperature has undoubtedly allowed more high temperature than low temperature records to be broken. However, this is a low enough amount of warming that there should still be a few cold temperature records being set, since the weather is so highly variable.

The statistics support this position. The Waterloo, Iowa mark was only the second time this decade that an all-time record cold temperature has been set at a major U.S. city. The cities I consider are the 303 cities author Chris Burt tracks in his excellent Extreme Weather book. The cites chosen were selected based primarily on their length of weather records (all the records go back to at least 1948, with most going back to the 1800s), and include all the largest cities in the U.S. The only other all-time coldest temperature record set at these cities this decade was the -44°F recorded in Grand Forks, North Dakota on 1/30/2004. By contrast, 49 all-time high temperature marks have been set this decade (Figure 1).

Perhaps a better judge of the impact of global warming on extreme temperatures, though, is to look at record warmest and coldest months. Month-long records are more reflective of the climate than an extreme event lasting just a few days. No all-time coldest month records were at any U.S. cities during January 2009, and it was not even close. Despite the cold blast of Jan. 11-18, the month of January finished out above average in temperature for the lower 48 states. So far this decade, no U.S. major city has set an all-time coldest month record. The last time a coldest month record was set occurred in January, 1994 when Caribou Maine and Bayfield, Wisconsin recorded their coldest month. By contrast, there have been 61 all-time warmest month records set in those same 303 cities between 2000 and 2008 (Figure 1). The summer of 2007 alone saw 42 all-time high (or warmest month ever) records. Just one record was set in the summer of 2008.


Figure 1. Minimum and maximum temperatures records for the U.S. for 303 major stations. The image has been updated through January 2009 to include the one record low set that month. The original version of this image was for 2007, and I modified it to update it for four changes made in the 2008 data. The numbers for the decade of the 2000s are correct, but there are four (out of 606) records that need to be subtracted off some of the earlier decades. Note the the 1930s were the most extreme decade for total number of records set, but the 1920s were the least extreme. U.S. weather has a high degree of variability from decade to decade. Image credit: Chris Burt, Extreme Weather.

Are the pattern of U.S. temperature records due to the Urban Heat Island effect?
There have been 110 all-time high temperature or all-time warmest month records set at the 303 major U.S. cities this decade, and only two such low temperature records set. Is this disparity due to global warming, or the Urban Heat Island effect? The Urban Heat Island (UHI) effect occurs when development of former natural areas into pavement and buildings allows more heat to be trapped in cities, particularly at night. During the day, the UHI effect often leads to a slight cooling, since it can increase the amount of turbulence, allowing cooler air to get mixed down to the surface. For example, Moreno-Garcia (1994) found that Barcelona, Spain was 0.2°C cooler for daily maxima and 2.9°C warmer for minima than a nearby rural station.

However, temperature records are typically taken in parks and airports removed from the main heat-trapping areas of cities, and are not as strongly affected as one might expect. There are several reasons for this. One is that when tall buildings are present, they tend to block the view to the sky, meaning that not as much heat can escape upwards. In addition, the presence of moist vegetation keeps the atmosphere moister in park-like areas (which include the grassy fields near airports where temperature measurements are taken). This extra moisture helps cool the atmosphere on a local scale of tens of meters, due to latent heat effects (the energy required to convert liquid water to water vapor). Peterson (2003) found that "Contrary to generally accepted wisdom, no statistically significant impact of urbanization could be found in annual temperatures." The study used satellite-based night-light detection to identify urban areas. Recent research by Spronken-Smith and Oke (1998) concluded that there was a marked park cool island effect within the Urban Heat Island. They found that parks in typical cities in the U.S. have temperatures 1 - 2°C cooler than the surrounding city--and sometimes more than 5°C cooler. While the Urban Heat Island effect probably has contributed to some of the reduction in record low temperatures in the U.S. in the past decade, research by Parker (2004, 2006) and Peterson (2003) theorizes that Urban Heat Island effect is a factor ten or more less important than rising temperatures due to global warming.

Is the Urban Heat Island effect partially responsible for global warming?
Global warming is affecting the entire Earth, including rural areas far from cities, and the 70% of the world covered by ocean. Thus, the Urban Heat Island effect--if not corrected for--can cause only a small impact on the global temperature figures. Since the Urban Heat Island is corrected for, the impact on the observed global warming signal should be negligible. For instance, NASA uses satellite-derived night light observations to classify stations as rural and urban and corrects the urban stations so that they match the trends from the rural stations before gridding the data. Other techniques (such as correcting for population growth) have also been used. Despite these corrections, and the fact that the Urban Heat Island effect impacts only a relatively small portion of the globe, global warming skeptics have persistently used the Urban Heat Island effect to attack the validity of global warming. There are no published peer-reviewed scientific studies that support these attacks.

References
Parker, D.E., 2004, "Large-Scale Warming is not Urban", Nature 432, 290, doi:10.1038/432290a, 2004.

Parker, D.E., 2006, "A Demonstration that Large-Scale Warming is not Urban", J. Climate 19, pp2882-2986, 2006.

Peterson, T.C., "Assessment of urban versus rural in situ surface temperatures in the contiguous United States: No difference found", Journal of Climate, 16, 2941-2959, 2003.

Spronken-Smith, R. A., and T. R. Oke, 1998: "The thermal regime of urban parks in two cities with different summer climates. Int. J. Remote Sens., 19, 20852104.

The surface temperature record and the urban heat island, realclimate.org post, 2004.

My next post will be sometime Tue-Thu.

Jeff Masters

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Never mind
Member Since: August 19, 2008 Posts: 6 Comments: 2490
Interesting, is this from Jan. 07-08-09?

Quoting JRRP:
Happy new year!!!!
See the comparison of this year with previous years ... it�s a little cold
2007

2008

2009

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Quoting calusakat:
skyepony

According to researchers in south Florida, as late as 8 thousand years ago, sea level was 20 feet higher than today. Calusa indians lived on shell mounds and some can still be found in SWFLA below Marco Island.

Some of the mounds were horseshoe shaped and pointed to the east away from the deeper water. Scientists have surmised that the opening allowed high tide to enter the horseshoe area and as the tide went out, the Calusas would fashion traps with which to catch the fish as the tide went out.

It would appear that the mainland was somewhere around the Central Florida area. That is why you see those clumps of trees as you travel across the swamp on I-75 and Highway 41. Those are hammocks and were very likely tree islands back then.


Great story, KittieCat, except, of course that sea levels are higher today than they were 8,000 years ago. You obviously love making stuff up to support your distorted view of the world but I don't think you're fooling many folks. Then again, around here maybe you are. BTW - what was the world population 8,000 years ago? 50-60 billion maybe?
skyepony

According to researchers in south Florida, as late as 8 thousand years ago, sea level was 20 feet higher than today. Calusa indians lived on shell mounds and some can still be found in SWFLA below Marco Island.

Some of the mounds were horseshoe shaped and pointed to the east away from the deeper water. Scientists have surmised that the opening allowed high tide to enter the horseshoe area and as the tide went out, the Calusas would fashion traps with which to catch the fish as the tide went out.

It would appear that the mainland was somewhere around the Central Florida area. That is why you see those clumps of trees as you travel across the swamp on I-75 and Highway 41. Those are hammocks and were very likely tree islands back then.
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aspectre..

What bilge pump were you using to answer txag91met?

Back in 1960, when Orlando was but a sleepy town of approximately 60,000, the summer rains would move in from the west in the afternoon. The clouds would roll in straight over the city and continue to the east coast.

Over the years, Orlando grew and the downtown area became what we, the locals, called a concrete jungle. As a budding weather hound among a group of fellow weather hounds, we all noticed something odd about the weather pattern, especially the rainy part of the year.

We noticed that as the clouds would approach downtown, they would split into two columns, one would go around to the south and the other would go around to the north. At a certain point, those clouds would move back together and continue heading toward the east coast as usual. We also noticed that it was decidedly hotter and muggier as we approached the downtown area during the summer.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that concrete and asphalt do, indeed, absorb a great deal of the heat and radiate it back into the atmosphere. It is especially noticeable during the evening hours.

Ever heard of the concept of thermal conductivity?

Desert sand is completely different from concrete and asphalt, primarily to to the fact that it is very lightly packed compared to concrete and asphalt. Which means it acts more like an insulation blanket keeping the heat at the surface, and radiating much of it right back into the atmosphere. That is why a person can squiggle their feet in the sand and quickly find much cooler sand below the surface.

With concrete and asphalt, the material is much denser and therefore the heat generated at the surface can permeate through to the material below and become a storehouse of heat energy. Another thing to consider is the fact that the low thermal conductivity of concrete and asphalt works to retain the heat, releasing the heat absorbed during the day at a slower rate.

The greater the mass, the greater the heat retention so there is a bit of localized heating going on as a result.

As is the case with Orlando, downtown is much hotter than just a few miles to the west where there is much less concrete sprawl.

That is why it is so important to place the weather stations properly. Downtown Orlando would give a very wrong reading about the actual conditions in Central Florida.



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Looks as though ice on the flaps may have brought the plane down. They say as soon as the flaps were raised they lost control of the plane. And just before it crashed the crew attempted to raise the landing gear and lower the flaps, but by then they were so far out of control. Hoping to see a stricter flying standard as far as the weather goes. Would rather have a flight delayed or cancelled if there was any reason to than to have happen to anyone what happened to these families.
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What New Record????

When I lived in N. Maine in 1975 we experienced a temp of -51f. Actually, that was at the official station way down south in Caribou. At Loring AFB it was quite a bit colder, -60f according to the base's station. There was no wind and perfectly sunny. My rubber boots shattered while I was waiting for our school bus. The Caribou temp is confirmed on the NWS web page. The Caribou station is on a hill or something as it always read 10 degrees warmer than Loring or Limestone in the winter though at the time it was usually the coldest "official" station in Maine. Is the Big Black River station a new one? If Caribou was the furthest north gage until recently, then it's easy to see why the record was broken.
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56. Cotillion "I'm surprised we even bother with like, below -30F...why do we need below that temperature?"

Cuz -40degreesFahrenheit = -40degreesCelsius
And conditions ain't desperate until the vodka freezes.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

46. txag91met "This is not entirely correct. I have examples:
Reno, Nevada has shown a huge increase in temperature in the last few decades as the city as grown and the placement of the thermometer (ASOS) is near the runway.
"

Your point???
Reno is on the high plateau behind the SierraMadres, upon which the snowpack has melted ever faster over the last few decades.
The water temperature of nearby LakeTahoe has been warming an average of 0.015degreesC/0.027degreesF per year over the last 40years. And LakeTahoe is one deep lake, with lots of mixing between the surface and the depths, so that takes one HECKUVALOTTA warming.

"Las Vegas is just as bad as the city continues to grow and more expansion of concrete and asphalt has occurred since in the 1960s."

Replacing the desert scrubland and hardscrabble around LasVegas with concrete and asphalt would barely affect temperatures. Heck, concrete wouldn't absorb as much light from the sun, so that'd probably more than make up for any extra heat produced by the light absorbed by asphalt.
The real growth has been in the number of lawns*, golf courses, country clubs, and suburban parks; which would COOL the city if the regional climate weren't warming.

"Phoenix is probably even worse."

Again, the real change has been in lawns/etc replacing desert. More so: less scrub and more hardscrabble being replaced.

"Houston IAH has warmed signficantly since the 1970s."

So has the nearby Gulf of Mexico.

"Dallas / Fort-Worth is a concrete jungle now, and the temperature continues to go up with time.

Useta be the demarcation between Dallas and FortWorth was absurdly clear considering the short distance of separation: Dallas was lush green, FortWorth was desert brown. Now, ForthWorth is noticably greener.

"I can go on and on."

And already have.

* The local governments refused to allow xeriscaping up until a couple of years ago, even within new suburban development projects.
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79. Skyepony (Mod)
Weather, staff delay NorCal cloud-seeding project
REDDING, Calif. (AP) - Staffing shortages and winter storms have delayed a power company's plans to install cloud-seeding stations in Northern California to draw out more precipitation.

Pacific Gas and Electric Co. spokeswoman Paul Moreno says workers aren't available to set up seven generators in Siskiyou and Shasta counties. And recent snow has made driving to remote ridges nearly impossible.

The project would propel silver iodide into the air to draw more precipitation when storms pass through. Residents are worried about the environmental effects and question whether the region's dams can hold the water.

PG&E uses water for its hydropower plants.


Information from: Record Searchlight, http://redding.com
Member Since: August 10, 2005 Posts: 161 Comments: 37342
Quoting Skyepony:
Way to go Squid:)

MNTornado~ I saw they deveated 5 miles from course right before crash. Avoiding weather would make sense.


Unfortunately it's impossible to avoid down bursts if you can't see them and you don't have on board radar that can show them.

I looked at the crash location vs the airport location as reported last night. The dash 8 was North East of the airport and may have been in line to land on run way 15 based on satellite images I looked at.

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I'm listening to a news conference on MSNBC right now. According to what they are saying, the dash 8 had deicing equipment and the deicing was turned on. Preliminary reports are that there was significant icing on the windshield and wings of the plane. Also the plane was most likely at about 2000 feet above ground and had it's landing gear extended. There were reports of significant pitching and rolling of the airplane also.
Apparently conditions for icing were very good last night in Buffalo and at least two other planes did report significant icing on their planes.

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76. Skyepony (Mod)
Way to go Squid:)

MNTornado~ I saw they deveated 5 miles from course right before crash. Avoiding weather would make sense.
Member Since: August 10, 2005 Posts: 161 Comments: 37342
Regarding the dash 8 that crashed last night near Buffalo, NY. I doubt that icing was the cause of the crash. My reason is that even though I don't have a pilots license, I did in fact train to get my private pilots license and have some knowledge in this area.

According to reports I have heard on TV, the pilot of the dash 8 didn't say anything to controllers about having any problems with the airplane. I know from my training and experience that icing doesn't cause sudden loss of lift of the airframe and wings. It builds up and the pilot would have noticed something and reported it before the dash 8 got to heavy to fly. All the descriptions that I have heard on TV indicate the the cause of the crash was rather sudden and caused the plane to go down before the pilot could make a call for help. To me, that means catastrophic failure of the airplane systems or some outside influence that drove the airplane into the ground. I suspect the later because of something that I believe that I saw on the Buffalo, NY nexrad radar image. I took a look at the radar for Buffalo last night after hearing about the crash. I looked at a 40 frame loop that would have covered the time frame during the airplanes crash. The radar showed that it was snowing in Buffalo last night during the crash. I also noted something that I'm not sure if it was what it appeared to be. I sent an email to Dr. Jeff Masters to take a look himself and see if he can see the same thing in the radar image archive. What I saw appeared to be a bow echo moving through Buffalo, NY moving from Northwest to Southeast. This bow echo image is something that I've seen many times on radar images since being with WU for the last 4 years. Others that I've talked to about this have indicated that bow echos can indicate the presence of down bursts (downward moving air out the the thunderstorm moving at speeds of 100mph or faster). If this was a bow echo that I saw, and it contained a down burst in the Buffalo, NY area during the time the dash 8 was coming into the airport area, it's possible that the airplane was driven into the ground by the down burst. All of my experience and training over the years have indicated to me that down bursts are invisible to the pilot unless they have an on board radar that can detect it. Down bursts can and often do, destroy the air flight characteristics of the airplane thus the airplane goes into a stall and literally drops out of the sky. Pilots are trained on how to deal with stalls as part of their training, but if it occurs during take off or landing of the plane when it's too close to the ground, there is not much that the pilot can do. I've asked Dr. Masters to check this out and if he finds my data is accurate to contact the NTSB and FAA who will be investigating this crash.
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well, I think the SSTs and TCHP will be drastically higher come May. Another warm day in florida, its been unusally warm here the past couple of days. Incase you didnt see my previous post, 109 days till hurricane season, 81 days till may 1st.
Member Since: July 8, 2005 Posts: 259 Comments: 23568
70. Squid28

Contrats Squid. I know the past five months must have been hell for your family and neighbors. I admire your will and determination. Good for you.
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Do you think in Maine they'd mind if you burned their card for warmth?
Member Since: August 23, 2008 Posts: 7 Comments: 5300
Britain's Roman Catholic Church is advising lovelorn singles to direct their February 14 requests for love to St Raphael, rather than St Valentine.

Over the years St Valentine has come incorrectly to be associated with finding love, the Church says.

Link
Member Since: August 23, 2008 Posts: 7 Comments: 5300
I just had to drop by and share this real quick, for those who were here before, during, and after the storm...

Today will go down as one of those days I will remeber with vivid clarity until the day I die. My family and I are finally moving back into our house five months to the day after hurricane Ike forever changed our lives. I have worked on it every day except for Thanksgiving and Christmas and finally put the last piece of flooring in last night at 3 a.m. Gotta go unload my SAM and see what is left of our possessions from the second floor. I wil be the second one to return to my immediate neighborhood, other than those who are living in FEMA trailers on their driveways. Shore Acres, TX is coming back....
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Quoting theshepherd:
If that turns out to be true, then that further reinforces my preference for small single engine props. One of the worst things that can befall a twin engine is to have one engine go out at low altitude. It immediately torques heavily in the direction of the failed engine. All he can do is stomp the pedals and get on the wheel as he tries to control his downward ascent.No thank you...LOL


Shep, This doesn't apply to airliners, just light twins.

I have taken off a bunch of 757s and 767s on one engine during training and they do just fine
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The blogmasters prognostications have absolutely no validity.

Why??

Because he has admitted being in bed with the AGW gang.

That means his observations are tainted with admitted bias...

Hence his statements are little more than idle opinion.

Opinion is far removed from FACT.

Very unscientific. :-(

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67. JRRP
Happy new year!!!!
See the comparison of this year with previous years ... its a little cold
2007

2008

2009

Member Since: Posts: Comments:
66. Skyepony (Mod)
There looks like we will be seeing more exact info coming out about sea level rises. The numbers have been pretty scetchy so far til now with some new studies, discoveries & the use of GRACE to understand how water piles up where do to gravity & currents. Here was an interesting look in a peak in the past from something published last week..

Scientists have found proof in Bermuda that the planet's sea level was once more than 21 meters (70 feet) higher about 400,000 years ago than it is now. Their findings were published in the journal Quaternary Science Reviews Wednesday, Feb. 4. Storrs Olson, research zoologist at the Smithsonian's National Museum of Natural History, and geologist Paul Hearty of the Bald Head Island Conservancy discovered sedimentary and fossil evidence in the walls of a limestone quarry in Bermuda that documents a rise in sea level during an interglacial period of the Middle Pleistocene in excess of 21 meters above its current level. Hearty and colleagues had published preliminary evidence of such a sea-level rise nearly a decade ago, which was met with skepticism among geologists. This marine fossil evidence now provides unequivocal evidence of the timing and extent of this event


Here's a press release from the UK researchers. Entirety of study to be released soon..

The ravaging effects of climate change on our planet over the next 1,000 years – as a result of failed emission policies – have been mapped out in a brand new report unveiled by the Institution of Mechanical Engineers (IMechE).

The report: "Climate Change: Adapting to the Inevitable," predicts what will happen in three regions: the UK, Botswana and Shanghai as CO2 emissions continue to soar amidst failing Kyoto type agreements and ongoing political debates. Indeed, it explores whether the impending Copenhagen conference in November will make any difference in the enormous challenge facing us. Climate modelling in the report shows the UK suffering from increased flooding, volatile storms, droughts and intense heat and areas including London and the Norfolk Broads could eventually, literally, be wiped off the map.

In a month’s time IMechE will launch its three-pronged plan to a select group of MPs in an urgent bid to start implementing long-term adaptation. IMechE warns that if CO2 emissions are not slashed, then within 30 years temperatures are predicted to rise by 2 °C – by which time, the report says, it will be too little, too late.



Oh & a lotta large cracks in the artic ice for mid Feb.. or you can go here & look around.
Member Since: August 10, 2005 Posts: 161 Comments: 37342
I don't mind the "flying" :)
Its the "type" of landing that screws it all up :)
Member Since: October 1, 2007 Posts: 81 Comments: 26511
I can go on and on.

And so can a LOT of highly trained experts in the field:
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/10/24/a_gathering_of_skeptics/" target="_blank Link

and sometimes even data manipulation is employed:

http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/08/04/mauna-loa-co2-january-to-july-trend-goes-negative-first-time- in-history/Link


IMO, what we are witnessing is a political agenda driven by grant money from the UN and sympathetic government agencies and officials. About 20 years ago NOVA had a presentation by two researchers called "Do Scientists Cheat?". Their conclusion then was that as many as 48% of them cook, trim, or prefabricate the data. I believe it is much worse now because grants are usually not offered to proposals which don't toe the GW line. Also, these agencies seldom fund replication or other confirmation studies. BTW IIRC, as a reward for their whistle blowing, the two researchers were posted to do-nothing offices in North Dakota and Alaska.

GW people have a hammer, and everything they see is a nail. Getting colder? Proof of GW. Getting hotter? Proof of GW. More rain? Proof of GW. Less rain? Proof of GW. Every nail is explained by their hammer. Unlike Einstein's prediction of star parallax in his Special Theory of Relativity, which predicted precisely the shift in apparent position as the light from a distant star grazed the limb of the Sun during a total eclipse, I have yet to read of a GW scientist making a non-trivial prediction about GW that can be tested and FALSIFIED, instead of calling skeptics GW "deniers".

It reminds me of the Global Cooling, or the Nuclear Winter, scare 50 years ago. Time Magazine said "every" scientist was on board with that "fact". That was followed by the 1970s Club of Rome Study (via a COMPUTER MODEL, no less, so it HAD to be true!) that predicted global resource shortages and starvation. Their computer program allowed the user to modify birth rates, death rates, and resource consumption rates and then graph the results. No matter what you rates you input the output was always a population die off. That was because the internal functions doing the calculations were done is such a way that regardless of inputs the outputs eventually resulted in a die off, most of them catastrophic. There was no method in the computer program to add or change resources, or to allow for advances in agricultural or industrial knowledge.

In recent years I've seen similar scams with Hydrological Models contained in GUI software sold to government agencies who were charged with developing environmental controls on Midwest water sheds. Using well tested second order Diff Eqs, they supposedly circumvented chaotic outputs, which often results when REAL data is used, by allowing the user to apply inputs measured at the source cube but adjust variables on the terminal cube to give what they WANTED the model to show. Then the model was run backwards, automatically computing intermediate variables in each cube so as to finally mesh with the measured input variables of the source cube. Then all they had to do was "find" wells in the intermediate areas which produced the calculated intermediate "input" values. It was nothing less than a form of cherry-picking the data. Totally unethical and dishonest, but those doing it had a religious belief that their theories were truth and they were going to save the world. When a 30 year professor of Natural resources involved in the study blew the whistle on their methods he was cut off from the study and his other funding was removed. It was really all for show, anyway. Even BEFORE the period of data "collection" was done the government agencies involved ALREADY had written the rules and regulations for water use on the Platte River. The whole "scientific" analysis was just a dog and pony show to point at when skeptics questioned the project. The states involved were threatened with cutoffs of Federal funds if they didn't "get on board". They did. For their help in contributing data and personnel to the study several 5013C wildlife groups recieved millions in grants. This whole scam was started by these groups claiming losses (if there were losses) in certain migratory bird species "because" the Platte was running dry from Kearney on, and grass was growing in the channel. Their claim was that the problem was all due to ground water being pumped out by too many irrigation wells. Even displaying a story and photo printed in a July, 1905, issue of the Grand Island Independent showing a dry river bed occurring almost 100 years before the current "problem", and mentioning that it is a frequent occurrence depending on the snow fall at the head waters of the Platte, had no effect on the agencies involved. Like the Three Monkeys they would not hear, see or speak of anything that opposed their agenda.


All in all, the HUGE amount of government grant money has totally corrupted what many refer to as the "Scientific Method". It used to be that an experiment was designed so as to prove an hypothesis WRONG. Now it is just the opposite. They have forgotten that even though thousands of experiments giving results agreeing with a theory DO NOT prove it right, it takes ONLY ONE experiment to prove it false.
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Except our bad flight was on an A320.. Not fun.. There was about 2 mins there I thought they were about to loose control of the plane. Too much turbulence to be flying in.

Quoting Beachfoxx:
Charlotte,

Worse flight I have EVER been on was from PCB to Palm Beach, ended up in Miami - the airport had no power and we bounced all over the runway as we landed. About an hour later they loaded us up again and we flew a very bumpy flight (puddle hopper, don't remember what kind of plane) and landed at Palm Beach. One of the girls attending convention refused to fly home and rented a car and drove. Said she would NEVER fly again.
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Quoting theshepherd:
If that turns out to be true, then that further reinforces my preference for small single engine props. One of the worst things that can befall a twin engine is to have one engine go out at low altitude. It immediately torques heavily in the direction of the failed engine. All he can do is stomp the pedals and get on the wheel as he tries to control his downward ascent.No thank you...LOL


An eye witness just described exactly what you did above.
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psssssssst...

Peterson (2003) found that "Contrary to generally accepted wisdom, no statistically significant impact of urbanization could be found in annual temperatures." The study used satellite-based night-light detection to identify urban areas. Recent research by Spronken-Smith and Oke (1998) concluded that there was a marked park cool island effect within the Urban Heat Island. They found that parks in typical cities in the U.S. have temperatures 1 - 2°C cooler than the surrounding city--and sometimes more than 5°C cooler. While the Urban Heat Island effect probably has contributed to some of the reduction in record low temperatures in the U.S. in the past decade, research by Parker (2004, 2006) and Peterson (2003) theorizes that Urban Heat Island effect is a factor ten or more less important than rising temperatures due to global warming.
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Member Since: September 2, 2007 Posts: 178 Comments: 20439
The latest post by Dr. Masters failed to address the improper placement of a great many NOAA weather stations across the country, which, almost without exception, increase the measured temperature by several degrees.
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I updated my Weather Blog if anyone would like to view......A new look with easier loading....

TampaSpins Weather Blog Link
Member Since: September 2, 2007 Posts: 178 Comments: 20439
Voice recorder has been recovered, reports state. No data yet.
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I'm surprised we even bother with like, below -30F.

Like, the Dvorak below 1.0 - aside maybe scientific experiments - why do we need below that temperature?

I'd just go...
-28F
-29F
-30F
-TOOCOLD

Works a charm. ;)
Member Since: August 23, 2008 Posts: 7 Comments: 5300
Quoting Ossqss:
Check this. All planes pulled from service with SAS a little over 12 months ago.

Link


It would be interesting, yet tragic, to see if one of this airlines decommissioned planes ended up being the one that crashed.

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51 foxxy
good trade...
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Quoting Ossqss:


Eye witness reports are indicating engine trouble as the cause. Sputtering prior to crashing. Just passing it on.
If that turns out to be true, then that further reinforces my preference for small single engine props. One of the worst things that can befall a twin engine is to have one engine go out at low altitude. It immediately torques heavily in the direction of the failed engine. All he can do is stomp the pedals and get on the wheel as he tries to control his downward ascent.No thank you...LOL
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Check this. All planes pulled from service with SAS a little over 12 months ago.

Link
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Charlotte,

Worse flight I have EVER been on was from PCB to Palm Beach, ended up in Miami - the airport had no power and we bounced all over the runway as we landed. About an hour later they loaded us up again and we flew a very bumpy flight (puddle hopper, don't remember what kind of plane) and landed at Palm Beach. One of the girls attending convention refused to fly home and rented a car and drove. Said she would NEVER fly again.
Quoting charlottefl:
Well I've flown on the edge of a Tropical Storm, trying to remember the Name... Noel I think in late Oct / Early Nov 2007. Very short trip out of the country 3 days. And my departure we were taking off in 40 mph gusting higher and arriving in Ft. Lauderdale was downright scary. I can tell you I will not fly near a TS again. I think there are a lot of times weather can be questionable, but airlines are pressed to fly in marginal conditions...(not saying that was the case here, but seems icing was a problem for other planes if you listen to ATC tapes.)
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Quoting Beachfoxx:
Yes, Shep, the crashing can be a problem....

This plane was designed to fly in "unforgiving weather conditions", it has an excellent safety record, pilots like this plane.... Will have to "wait & see" what the investigation finds. Its so sad.

Ya'll have a good day. TTYL
Peace


This plane has a history of problems predominatly with its landing gear 3 instances as recent as last year. Cant say that is a factor, but it does have some blemishes in its record.
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Yes, Shep, the crashing can be a problem....

This plane was designed to fly in "unforgiving weather conditions", it has an excellent safety record, pilots like this plane.... Will have to "wait & see" what the investigation finds. Its so sad.

Ya'll have a good day. TTYL
Peace
Quoting Ossqss:


Eye witness reports are indicating engine trouble as the cause. Sputtering prior to crashing. Just passing it on.
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Quoting charlottefl:
Well I've flown on the edge of a Tropical Storm, trying to remember the Name... Noel I think in late Oct / Early Nov 2007. Very short trip out of the country 3 days. And my departure we were taking off in 40 mph gusting higher and arriving in Ft. Lauderdale was downright scary. I can tell you I will not fly near a TS again. I think there are a lot of times weather can be questionable, but airlines are pressed to fly in marginal conditions...(not saying that was the case here, but seems icing was a problem for other planes if you listen to ATC tapes.)

LOL....If you think storm conditions are scary around Lauderdale, due to the price of fuel in the islands, you should check out the fuel gauges on the small commercial return flights.
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ATC audio from the Buffalo Crash Link
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This is not entirely correct. I have examples:
Reno, Nevada has shown a huge increase in temperature in the last few decades as the city as grown and the placement of the thermometer (ASOS) is near the runway. Las Vegas is just as bad as the city continues to grow and more expansion of concrete and asphalt has occurred since in the 1960s. The thermometer there is near the runway. Phoenix is probably even worse. Houston IAH has warmed signficantly since the 1970s. A recent station move now has it near the runway (although they tried to correct for this). Dallas / Fort-Worth is a concrete jungle now, and the temperature continues to go up with time. I can go on and on.
Reno
Las Vegas
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On that Model the engines are in front the wing.
All evidence points to a icing event as the spiraling nose-down attitude,suggest.
The FDR an CVR will tell the tale on this one.

Small area wide wings are prone to just this type of event.

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Quoting theshepherd:
I'm not afraid of flying. I'm afraid of crashing.
The survival record for airliner crashes is next to nil if they do anything but land on their intended runway. Small single engine props, no problem with flying them.


Eye witness reports are indicating engine trouble as the cause. Sputtering prior to crashing. Just passing it on.
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Chunck of ice may have dislogded off the plane and flew back into the engine propellers and causing the engine to die, therefore falling straight outta of the sky.
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Quoting theshepherd:
Black box will tell. Doubt pilot error. Nose-down spiral is a sure sign of stall recovery attempt from only 2000 feet or attempt to return to runway. Sounds more like airline industry error dispatching planes into conditions not safe for flight.


NOT SAYING it is but, Pilot Error would also include not de-icing or improper de-icing as one can de-ice to often......
Member Since: September 2, 2007 Posts: 178 Comments: 20439
Quoting Beachfoxx:
Ah Shep...
It not the flying I mind, its going through security! Stressful enough to cause a heart attack! Shoes off, belt off, jacket off.....
I'm not afraid of flying. I'm afraid of crashing.
The survival record for airliner crashes is next to nil if they do anything but land on their intended runway. Small single engine props, no problem with flying them.
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Well I've flown on the edge of a Tropical Storm, trying to remember the Name... Noel I think in late Oct / Early Nov 2007. Very short trip out of the country 3 days. And my departure we were taking off in 40 mph gusting higher and arriving in Ft. Lauderdale was downright scary. I can tell you I will not fly near a TS again. I think there are a lot of times weather can be questionable, but airlines are pressed to fly in marginal conditions...(not saying that was the case here, but seems icing was a problem for other planes if you listen to ATC tapes.)
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Quoting TampaSpin:


Ya, that makes no sense unless the flap on one of the wings was froze so solidly that it was not working and causing it to turn in a spiral move. I'm afraid Pilot mistakes will surface!
Black box will tell. Doubt pilot error. Nose-down spiral is a sure sign of stall recovery attempt from only 2000 feet or attempt to return to runway. Sounds more like airline industry error dispatching planes into conditions not safe for flight.
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Jeff co-founded the Weather Underground in 1995 while working on his Ph.D. He flew with the NOAA Hurricane Hunters from 1986-1990.

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