Record -50°F confirmed for Maine; is this inconsistent with global warming?

By: Dr. Jeff Masters , 1:41 PM GMT on February 13, 2009

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The lowest temperature ever recorded in the state of Maine, a -50°F reading taken on January 16, has been confirmed as real, according to a press release issued by the U.S. Geological Survey (USGS) and National Weather Service this week. The new record occurred at 7:15 a.m. Jan. 16 at a remote river gauge in Big Black River (see USGS image at right), about four miles from the Canadian border. It ties the record set in 1933 for New England's lowest temperature, set at Bloomfield, Vermont. The old Maine record was -48°F, set in 1925 at Van Buren. All-time state records are difficult to break. The last time a state record low was set occurred January 5, 1999, when Congerville, Illinois recorded -36°F. Only one state record high temperature has been set in the past the decade--the 120°F temperature measured in Usta, South Dakota on July 15, 2006.

All-time record lows are inconsistent with global warming, right?
An impressive cold wave hit the northern and eastern portions of the U.S. January 11-18, with 17 states reporting record daily lows. In addition to the coldest temperature ever measured in Maine, one station, Waterloo, Iowa, tied its 1962 record for all-time coldest temperature, when the mercury hit -34°F on January 16. If global warming is occurring, we should not expect to see very many all-time city or state records being set. The nation's January-December average temperature has increased at a rate of 0.12°F per decade since 1895, and at a faster rate of 0.41°F per decade during the last 50 years. This 2°F rise in temperature has undoubtedly allowed more high temperature than low temperature records to be broken. However, this is a low enough amount of warming that there should still be a few cold temperature records being set, since the weather is so highly variable.

The statistics support this position. The Waterloo, Iowa mark was only the second time this decade that an all-time record cold temperature has been set at a major U.S. city. The cities I consider are the 303 cities author Chris Burt tracks in his excellent Extreme Weather book. The cites chosen were selected based primarily on their length of weather records (all the records go back to at least 1948, with most going back to the 1800s), and include all the largest cities in the U.S. The only other all-time coldest temperature record set at these cities this decade was the -44°F recorded in Grand Forks, North Dakota on 1/30/2004. By contrast, 49 all-time high temperature marks have been set this decade (Figure 1).

Perhaps a better judge of the impact of global warming on extreme temperatures, though, is to look at record warmest and coldest months. Month-long records are more reflective of the climate than an extreme event lasting just a few days. No all-time coldest month records were at any U.S. cities during January 2009, and it was not even close. Despite the cold blast of Jan. 11-18, the month of January finished out above average in temperature for the lower 48 states. So far this decade, no U.S. major city has set an all-time coldest month record. The last time a coldest month record was set occurred in January, 1994 when Caribou Maine and Bayfield, Wisconsin recorded their coldest month. By contrast, there have been 61 all-time warmest month records set in those same 303 cities between 2000 and 2008 (Figure 1). The summer of 2007 alone saw 42 all-time high (or warmest month ever) records. Just one record was set in the summer of 2008.


Figure 1. Minimum and maximum temperatures records for the U.S. for 303 major stations. The image has been updated through January 2009 to include the one record low set that month. The original version of this image was for 2007, and I modified it to update it for four changes made in the 2008 data. The numbers for the decade of the 2000s are correct, but there are four (out of 606) records that need to be subtracted off some of the earlier decades. Note the the 1930s were the most extreme decade for total number of records set, but the 1920s were the least extreme. U.S. weather has a high degree of variability from decade to decade. Image credit: Chris Burt, Extreme Weather.

Are the pattern of U.S. temperature records due to the Urban Heat Island effect?
There have been 110 all-time high temperature or all-time warmest month records set at the 303 major U.S. cities this decade, and only two such low temperature records set. Is this disparity due to global warming, or the Urban Heat Island effect? The Urban Heat Island (UHI) effect occurs when development of former natural areas into pavement and buildings allows more heat to be trapped in cities, particularly at night. During the day, the UHI effect often leads to a slight cooling, since it can increase the amount of turbulence, allowing cooler air to get mixed down to the surface. For example, Moreno-Garcia (1994) found that Barcelona, Spain was 0.2°C cooler for daily maxima and 2.9°C warmer for minima than a nearby rural station.

However, temperature records are typically taken in parks and airports removed from the main heat-trapping areas of cities, and are not as strongly affected as one might expect. There are several reasons for this. One is that when tall buildings are present, they tend to block the view to the sky, meaning that not as much heat can escape upwards. In addition, the presence of moist vegetation keeps the atmosphere moister in park-like areas (which include the grassy fields near airports where temperature measurements are taken). This extra moisture helps cool the atmosphere on a local scale of tens of meters, due to latent heat effects (the energy required to convert liquid water to water vapor). Peterson (2003) found that "Contrary to generally accepted wisdom, no statistically significant impact of urbanization could be found in annual temperatures." The study used satellite-based night-light detection to identify urban areas. Recent research by Spronken-Smith and Oke (1998) concluded that there was a marked park cool island effect within the Urban Heat Island. They found that parks in typical cities in the U.S. have temperatures 1 - 2°C cooler than the surrounding city--and sometimes more than 5°C cooler. While the Urban Heat Island effect probably has contributed to some of the reduction in record low temperatures in the U.S. in the past decade, research by Parker (2004, 2006) and Peterson (2003) theorizes that Urban Heat Island effect is a factor ten or more less important than rising temperatures due to global warming.

Is the Urban Heat Island effect partially responsible for global warming?
Global warming is affecting the entire Earth, including rural areas far from cities, and the 70% of the world covered by ocean. Thus, the Urban Heat Island effect--if not corrected for--can cause only a small impact on the global temperature figures. Since the Urban Heat Island is corrected for, the impact on the observed global warming signal should be negligible. For instance, NASA uses satellite-derived night light observations to classify stations as rural and urban and corrects the urban stations so that they match the trends from the rural stations before gridding the data. Other techniques (such as correcting for population growth) have also been used. Despite these corrections, and the fact that the Urban Heat Island effect impacts only a relatively small portion of the globe, global warming skeptics have persistently used the Urban Heat Island effect to attack the validity of global warming. There are no published peer-reviewed scientific studies that support these attacks.

References
Parker, D.E., 2004, "Large-Scale Warming is not Urban", Nature 432, 290, doi:10.1038/432290a, 2004.

Parker, D.E., 2006, "A Demonstration that Large-Scale Warming is not Urban", J. Climate 19, pp2882-2986, 2006.

Peterson, T.C., "Assessment of urban versus rural in situ surface temperatures in the contiguous United States: No difference found", Journal of Climate, 16, 2941-2959, 2003.

Spronken-Smith, R. A., and T. R. Oke, 1998: "The thermal regime of urban parks in two cities with different summer climates. Int. J. Remote Sens., 19, 20852104.

The surface temperature record and the urban heat island, realclimate.org post, 2004.

My next post will be sometime Tue-Thu.

Jeff Masters

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There is only so much we can do as individuals to live more responsibly. The rest comes down to government leaders and corporations. We can encourage them to be more proactive, but it's a slow process, one which we don't really have control of. Regardless of whether you believe in GW or not there are things ALL of us can do to live "cleaner" (waste less, recycle more, drive less, buy more fuel efficient vehicles, etc, etc. etc.) But it's a matter of everyone, governments, corporations, and individuals doing these things together. I think what RobDaHood was trying to say is the LEAST we can do is our part of the equation. Take responsibility for our own actions, and hope that others can do the same. We don't well enough understand climate cycles to accurately predict what will occur in the future. All we can do while we are striving to reach these conclusions is our part. The rest is out of our hands. That's all I'm saying.
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Hmmm. . . . interesting that we're getting some rain here right now. Unexpected.

And these are fairly heavy downpours from relatively lowlying clouds at that. . .
Member Since: October 25, 2005 Posts: 19 Comments: 22318
BTW, thanks a bunch, Aussie, for keeping us up to speed on what's happening with the fires there. I remember last summer watching the CA fires with horror; I didn't think I'd see anything even as bad elsewhere. . .
Member Since: October 25, 2005 Posts: 19 Comments: 22318
Quoting hurristat:
Does anyone know where to find best track data for the BoM and IMD?? I can't seem to find it.
Check their website.


Quoting RobDaHood:


...But there IS an inbetween position...That is the one of the realist. In other words...yeah, this isn't perfect, but it's something we can do today that is "cleaner" or "better" than what we did yesterday and is a step along our path towards tomorrow...
Well said. People are too busy defending their positions to decide what's necessary to reduce our footprint as a species.

BTW, anybody notice that the SPac seems pretty active this season? I notice HGW is posting much more regular notices on depressions and TCs there than we saw last year. . .
Member Since: October 25, 2005 Posts: 19 Comments: 22318
AUSTRALIA will honour victims of Victoria's deadliest bushfires next Sunday on what has been declared a National Day of Mourning.

An 11am service will be held at Rod Laver Arena to remember those killed or missing, and give thanks to the courageous firefighters and volunteers.

All state premiers will be invited to Sunday's service along with families devastated by the fires and emergency service workers.

Prime Minister Kevin Rudd said the service would provide Australians with an opportunity to grieve as a nation and come to terms with its worst natural disaster.

"February 7 will become etched in our national memory as a day of disaster, of death and of mourning and it is very important that the nation grieves," he said.

Premier John Brumby said TV and radio would be asked to broadcast the service so all Australians could take part.

"While we are inviting all Victorians to attend, no venue is going to be big enough to cater for all those Victorians, and indeed all Australians, to express their sorrow and compassion for those affected by these fires," he said.

"We want people wherever they live to be able to participate in this service."

On today's 26th anniversary of the Ash Wednesday bushfires, 4500 firefighters were battling nine blazes raging out of control across the state.

As the bushfire crisis rolled into a second week:

THE death toll stayed at 181, but authorities say it will rise.

AN ACCUSED arsonist, suspected of lighting the Gippsland inferno at Churchill that killed at least 21 people, was due to appear at Melbourne Magistrates Court today.

MILLIONS of dollars continued to pour in to the Red Cross Victorian Bushfire Appeal, which stood at $93 million.

NINE bushfires were burning across the state, with 18 contained and 88 under control.

Residents of Belgrave, Ferny Creek, Sherbrooke, Kallista, and Tecoma were last night warned to be aware after a 5ha scrub fire that erupted in the Dandenong Ranges National Park about 6pm.

About 30km north of Melbourne, residents in Nillumbik Shire had their normally quiet Sundays shattered by the hum of chainsaws as residents took last week's fire as a call to arms.

North Warrandyte resident John FitzGerald, 72, said many residents were cutting down trees and clearing bush on private properties.

Much of the work would normally require permits but with smoke haze above the town, a sense of urgency outweighed possible fines.

"I think they were exercising their real concerns and if that concern is chainsawing a few dead trees, then stiff," Mr FitzGerald said.

He said neighbours held regular bushfire meetings and had created a website where they could view each other's fire plans.

"Living in Warrandyte we are acutely aware that we live in a fire danger zone," he said.

Firefighters from the US and New Zealand will join local crews today battling a blaze threatening water catchments.

The Kilmore East-Murrindindi complex fire was last night burning near the O'Shannassy, Armstrong, and Maroondah reservoirs.

CFA operations officer John Maguire said Melbourne Water could move water to reservoirs unaffected by fire.

"That is why we are doing as much work as we can now with the building of containment lines and backburning," he said.

Eight victim identification specialists from Indonesia, who worked in the aftermath of the Bali bombings and the Boxing Day tsunami, also arrived in Melbourne.

Residents of Gembrook were warned to stay vigilant after backburning work on the 27,000 ha Bunyip Ridge fire over the weekend.

A blaze at Wilsons Promontory was burning 7.5km south-east of the entrance to the prom, but was not threatening any communities.

Victoria's Emergency Services commissioner Bruce Esplin has taken a swipe at bosses who disapprove of their workers taking time off to fight the fires.

"Most employers in Victoria have been absolutely incredible - some haven't," Mr Esplin said.

"Some have suggested it is a bad case of timing."

A spokesman for Mr Esplin later confirmed he was referring to brewing giant Fosters who sacked 115 workers last week, including three CFA volunteers battling to save lives at the fire front.

- Geraldine Mitchell, Emily Power and Michael Wray
Member Since: September 30, 2007 Posts: 9 Comments: 15938
284. HadesGodWyvern (Mod)
Joint Typhoon Warning Center

Tropical Cyclone Formation Alert (2130z 15FEB)
============================================
An area of convection (93P/10F) located at 17.2S 171.5E or 340 NM west of Fiji. Animated infrared satellite imagery indicates significantly improved consolidation over the past 6 hours with covective banding wrapping into a defined low level circulation center. A 1850z SSMI image showed strong banding over the northern semi-circle with weaker, formative banding over the southeast quadrant, and a somewhat elongated low level circulation center. A 1833z Quikscat image also shows a stronger, but elongated, low level circulation center with 25-30 knot unflagged winds near the center. The upper level environment has improved considerably with the 1800z streamline analysis indicating a developing anticyclone over the low level circulation center and enhanced poleward outflow caused by a shift in the upper level trough/low northwest of the system. Animated water vapor imagery reflects this improvement with expanding poleward outflow evident over the southern semi-circle. Sea surface temperatures is also favorable for further development.

Maximum sustained winds near the center is 25-30 knots with a minimum sea level pressure of 1000 MB. The potential for this disturbance to form into a significant tropical cyclone within the next 24 hours is UPGRADED TO GOOD.

Member Since: May 24, 2006 Posts: 51 Comments: 45573
Quoting atmoaggie:


I agree with you, Baha.

Stupid thing is I am a met, I have a lot of math and statistics in my background, and I agree with some of what that dude said, but he is not going to have me going to bat for his viewpoint with that 'tude.
Hey, atmo. It's not the viewpoint I have a problem with. Lots on here have expressed something similar. It's the unnecessarily derogatory language and arrogant tone.

I can't respect people who don't show respect for others.

Peace.
Member Since: October 25, 2005 Posts: 19 Comments: 22318
Looks like rain is going to interrupt the Daytona 500

Member Since: September 30, 2007 Posts: 9 Comments: 15938
"Shoot, I was conservation aware back when scientist were predicting AGC (Cooling!)"

Sorry, but I just noticed this. Prime example of where the "me vs. them" mentality comes from. I've seem this claim made over and over again, ad nauseam, and it is completely untrue. If you took the time to verify this claim, you realize that the global cooling nonsense was a fabrication of the media and not made by any scientists. If people would be a little more responsible about what they post, maybe we could have a more rational discussion of the issues.
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Quoting TampaSpin:
This might be a very stupid question. But, would it even be possible without being attacked by some to think that the left over nuclear waist could be used in very small amounts as a power plant (engine) for Auto transportation. Obviously, it would have to housed (enclosed) to be of no danger. But, think of a sweet silent car...


Member Since: July 3, 2005 Posts: 426 Comments: 128636
"It is this notion, that only those who subscribe to AGW, live responsibly, that is so bothersome. It draws lines of me vs. them."

Sorry, but where did you get this? Please point out the specific language that I used that would lead you to this conclusion. I think the "me vs. them" mentality largely stems from mischaracterizations and distortion.
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Quoting RobDaHood:
RE Orca...Environmentally friendly cleaning products to replace unfriendly chemical solvents. Just though you might notice that he is not the enemy.

As for the rest. I was not discussing specific solutions, but rather the groundwork tha has to be laid. If you go back and look for meaning instead of an attack, you may gain a little insight as I was not attacking you or anyone else...simply explaining why I and many other members don't care to be here discussing this. You chose to perceive it as an attack. In your responses you proved my point.

And I'm done...you may now come at me with all guns blazing, you may ignore me completely...a button has been provided for you convenience.

Just curious what in my comments you perceive to be an attack? It seems that anytime an outsider, like myself, takes issue with comments posted here, it is characterized as an attack. Especially outsiders concerned about the threat of AGW. I certainly didn't perceive anything you posted as an attack on me. Whaleboy's posts, yes, but not yours. Also, I'm not seeing any enemies here - misguided, uninformed, ideological, maybe - but not enemies. You paint the world in very stark terms.
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Quoting pangean:


Thing is, some of us started living responsibly a long time ago. Then there's the other folk that like to talk in vague generalities and platitudes - we need to study the issue, solutions will take a long time, who knows if AGW is really a problem . Lots of stall tactics. You offer a vague strategy - "the one of the realist." Sounds impressive but how does that translate into actually doing something to address the problem? Sorry, but I think we're way beyond platitudes.

It is this notion, that only those who subscribe to AGW, live responsibly, that is so bothersome.
It draws lines of me vs. them.

I am not convinced that AGW is a threat - immediate or distant)
However for years I have
..Used cold water for washing clothes.
..Recycled
..Did not use pesticides (a neat treat living in South Carolina)
..Read the labels for additives and chemicals
..Cut off lights and electrical appliances when not in use.

Over the years I have added
..Combine errands, work close to home (average monthly mileage is about 170 miles)
..Buy as local as possible (saves fuel and refrigeration cost of buying produce shipped in)
..Buy items that do not use plastic packaging whenever possible (example: Tide in box, instead of liquid Tide in plastic container)

I am hardly alone in doing some combination of the above. It is called conservation. Shoot, I was conservation aware back when scientist were predicting AGC (Cooling!)
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RE Orca...Environmentally friendly cleaning products to replace unfriendly chemical solvents. Just though you might notice that he is not the enemy.

As for the rest. I was not discussing specific solutions, but rather the groundwork tha has to be laid. If you go back and look for meaning instead of an attack, you may gain a little insight as I was not attacking you or anyone else...simply explaining why I and many other members don't care to be here discussing this. You chose to perceive it as an attack. In your responses you proved my point.

And I'm done...you may now come at me with all guns blazing, you may ignore me completely...a button has been provided for you convenience.
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Quoting TampaSpin:
This might be a very stupid question. But, would it even be possible without being attacked by some to think that the left over nuclear waist could be used in very small amounts as a power plant (engine) for Auto transportation. Obviously, it would have to housed (enclosed) to be of no danger. But, think of a sweet silent car...

In an absolutely perfect world, a nuclear powered car would be wonderful.

Sadly here is the problem.

A husband and wife are driving their nuclear powered car and it is such a nice day that they are not paying attention to the road very well. They drive through an intersection, not noticing that the light is red and drive right into the path of a loaded dump truck. To make matters worse, the traffic is backed up so bad that they are propelled by the dump truck into the back of an equally loaded dump truck and are thoroughly crushed between the two monster trucks. Just by chance the capsule containing the nuclear material is pulverized and released into the outside world.

Not a nice thought is it?

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"If you live "responsibly" then I applaud you. So does TheShepherd"

Sorry, but I don't call advocating non-existent "clean coal" technology as a solution to AGW being responsible.


"So does Orca...in fact if you knew what Orca's business is, you might be applauding him as well."

If I'm not mistaken, he sells cleaning products. Not sure what this has to do with AGW.

Finally, I notice again that there's no specifics about solutions in your post. More vague generalities. Exactly what to you recommend as immediate steps, however imperfect, that folks should be taking. What's the current tech we should using>?
Member Since: Posts: Comments:
Another disappointment.
If the "deniers" tried to say that Global Warming didn't exist because the record temperature in the US was falling or the same, you would go absolutely nuts about how they were a bunch of freaks cherry-picking their data.

And to top it all off, let's look at the totals on the chart: Hot records: 612, Cold records: 603
Before '79 you guys looked at this chart and were publishing books about Global Cooling and the coming ice age.

Member Since: Posts: Comments:
"There is strong evidence that what we are seeing is a combination of the natural climate cycle along with other factors of mans influence that are not involved with the release of excess CO2."

So what is this evidence? How about a few papers that would support your position. You'll notice that Dr. Masters always provides references to support his assertions. That's what scientists do.
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If you live "responsibly" then I applaud you. So does TheShepherd, So does Orca...in fact if you knew what Orca's business is, you might be applauding him as well.

By Realist, I mean applying tech that we currently have that, while not perfect, is better than what we currently use. I mean baby steps...that is what has to happen along the way to running. I mean that whether you believe GW or CC is an issue or not, recognizing that we need to do a better job of caring for the planet we live on. I mean "sides" coming together with meaningful discussion rather than mindless debate. A Realist knows that people are not going to choose clean energy over food on the table. A Realist knows that changes need to occur, but will have to happen over a period of time, in a way that we can afford. And a Realist tries to get to the root of the problem and find a solution rather than argue over semantics.
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Quoting Orcasystems:


So we are back to you being 100% right and the rest of us being Morons again.


No, actually we're back to you putting words in my mouth again. You have something intelligent to add to the discussion, I'm all for it. If you're just out to score points for your side, I don't really need to hear it. Tell us, what do you think about the subject at hand and what evidence do you have to support your position?
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Quoting Skyepony:
Ya'll don't just talk about it...ya gotta use the stir stick..& how about to beat off the likes of these..

(click pic for article)




I don't have a problem with the fact that the planet appears to be getting warmer. I just have not seen enough evidence to confirm that CO2 is the only or primary cause of this affect. Based on what I've been able to learn thus far, I feel that there are many factors involved and have not seen enough proof that the climate is in danger of tipping over as some are claiming it will do. I am concerned that if man starts interfering with the climate in the wrong way, that things could get worse. Let's face it, man has done some stupid things in the past and hasn't been able to repair the damage every time. There is strong evidence that what we are seeing is a combination of the natural climate cycle along with other factors of mans influence that are not involved with the release of excess CO2. Man has messed things up with the destruction of large volumes of forests, improper land management and farming. I suspect that all the pollutants being dumped into the air and water may be playing a part in all this. I've very concerned that more mistakes will be made because we don't have all the facts and make things worse rather than better. We need to tread very carefully here. We only have this one planet to live on.
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Quoting pangean:


Thing is, some of us started living responsibly a long time ago. Then there's the other folk that like to talk in vague generalities and platitudes - we need to study the issue, solutions will take a long time, who knows if AGW is really a problem . Lots of stall tactics. You offer a vague strategy - "the one of the realist." Sounds impressive but how does that translate into actually doing something to address the problem? Sorry, but I think we're way beyond platitudes.


So we are back to you being 100% right and the rest of us being Morons again.
Member Since: October 1, 2007 Posts: 81 Comments: 26511
This blog is not going to come up with big solutions. At least, that is highly improbable. It does not bother me if people focus their posts on blame-placing or constructive actions. This blog does give people a way to solve some small problems like getting feedback on their level of sanity or getting the satisfaction of sharing information.

If someone did come up with a solution to a big problem we'd probably all laugh at them anyway. Heck, maybe tunnels are the answer!
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Quoting RobDaHood:


The reason I don't get involved in the discussions here is because of the bickering and name calling. I still maintain that this is a topic that cannot be discussed online without active moderation.

This topic is long on blame placement and short on solutions. Of course we all, posessing at least a modicum of intelligence know that "clean" is a relative term. The only way to "live clean" in the absolute sense of the term is to not be born in the first place. Since non-existence is not an acceptable solution to most of us, plans need to be made to, over a period of time, move to a much "cleaner" way of doing things. It is all well and good to say we need to stop this and stop that, but this is a rather long train...stopping it will take a while...getting up to speed in reverse. The problem with people is that they want pushbutton solutions...if they can't click a button and make it happen, they would rather sit around and argue over theories and place blame than apply a shoulder to the wheel and slowly get things moving. It's a lot harder to overhaul the engine than it is to just keep on whining and driving.

No solution to CO2 levels is going to happen overnight, and it won't be easy or cheap. But there IS an inbetween position...That is the one of the realist. In other words...yeah, this isn't perfect, but it's something we can do today that is "cleaner" or "better" than what we did yesterday and is a step along our path towards tomorrow...


Thing is, some of us started living responsibly a long time ago. Then there's the other folk that like to talk in vague generalities and platitudes - we need to study the issue, solutions will take a long time, who knows if AGW is really a problem . Lots of stall tactics. You offer a vague strategy - "the one of the realist." Sounds impressive but how does that translate into actually doing something to address the problem? Sorry, but I think we're way beyond platitudes.
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Quoting charlottefl:
I like this approach ;) Regardless of whether you believe in GW or not.



I wish I could have said it that well...
Thats what I mean by middle of the road :)
Member Since: October 1, 2007 Posts: 81 Comments: 26511
I like this approach ;) Regardless of whether you believe in GW or not.

Quoting RobDaHood:


The reason I don't get involved in the discussions here is because of the bickering and name calling. I still maintain that this is a topic that cannot be discussed online without active moderation.

This topic is long on blame placement and short on solutions. Of course we all, posessing at least a modicum of intelligence know that "clean" is a relative term. The only way to "live clean" in the absolute sense of the term is to not be born in the first place. Since non-existence is not an acceptable solution to most of us, plans need to be made to, over a period of time, move to a much "cleaner" way of doing things. It is all well and good to say we need to stop this and stop that, but this is a rather long train...stopping it will take a while...getting up to speed in reverse. The problem with people is that they want pushbutton solutions...if they can't click a button and make it happen, they would rather sit around and argue over theories and place blame than apply a shoulder to the wheel and slowly get things moving. It's a lot harder to overhaul the engine than it is to just keep on whining and driving.

No solution to CO2 levels is going to happen overnight, and it won't be easy or cheap. But there IS an inbetween position...That is the one of the realist. In other words...yeah, this isn't perfect, but it's something we can do today that is "cleaner" or "better" than what we did yesterday and is a step along our path towards tomorrow...
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263. Skyepony (Mod)
KEH~ LMAO you're certainly worthy to yield the stick.. Very Frosty the Coalmanesc:)

bappit~i don't know if it's all true either, i certainly don't have the socialoligist background as the author. Found the hoodwinked part intreging as well.
Member Since: August 10, 2005 Posts: 173 Comments: 38141
Quoting pangean:

You're a yuck a minute, whaleboy, a yuck a minute.


The reason I don't get involved in the discussions here is because of the bickering and name calling. I still maintain that this is a topic that cannot be discussed online without active moderation.

This topic is long on blame placement and short on solutions. Of course we all, posessing at least a modicum of intelligence know that "clean" is a relative term. The only way to "live clean" in the absolute sense of the term is to not be born in the first place. Since non-existence is not an acceptable solution to most of us, plans need to be made to, over a period of time, move to a much "cleaner" way of doing things. It is all well and good to say we need to stop this and stop that, but this is a rather long train...stopping it will take a while...getting up to speed in reverse...longer. The problem with people is that they want pushbutton solutions...if they can't click a button and make it happen, they would rather sit around and argue over theories and place blame than apply a shoulder to the wheel and slowly get things moving. It's a lot harder to overhaul the engine than it is to just keep on whining and driving.

No solution to CO2 levels is going to happen overnight, and it won't be easy or cheap. But there IS an inbetween position...That is the one of the realist. In other words...yeah, this isn't perfect, but it's something we can do today that is "cleaner" or "better" than what we did yesterday and is a step along our path towards tomorrow...
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Quoting pangean:

You're a yuck a minute, whaleboy, a yuck a minute.


Thank you.. I do try :)
Member Since: October 1, 2007 Posts: 81 Comments: 26511
Quoting Orcasystems:


I take it back, you are.

You're a yuck a minute, whaleboy, a yuck a minute.
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Quoting pangean:


OK, if moron is your word, and not mine, why would you write - "You'll find that people are more willing to listen to your points of view if you do not try and ram it down their throats, or call them morons for not obviously not believing absolutely everything only one side says." I have an idea why you'd write it. It's the old, tired tactic of distorting my words to try and paint me as unreasonable and therefore, by extension, try and discredit the idea that AGW is a serious problem that requires our attention. It gets old real quick and I doubt that you're fooling anyone except for those already in your choir.

I also can't understand why you take issue with my writing "If you're not an opponent of AGW, does that mean you think it's a good thing?" I really don't know what folks mean when they say they are in favor or not in favor of AGW. AGW refers to an increase in global temperatures caused by human activity. If you say that you're not an opponent of AGW, sounds to me like you're in favor of increasing global temps. That sounds strange to me and that's why I questioned it. It's a whole different thing than saying that you believe (or not) that temps are going up and humans are largely responsible.

Finally, the Swiss are known for neutrality, not finding the middle ground, per se. That's neutrality as in staying out of things that don't concern them. You may want to think about that.



I take it back, you are.
Member Since: October 1, 2007 Posts: 81 Comments: 26511
Live Feed Carrolton Parade,Fat Harry's St. Charles Ave. Link
Member Since: July 3, 2005 Posts: 426 Comments: 128636
Quoting Orcasystems:

Moron was my word, and you don't know me very well, trust me, if I scream at you.. you'll know it (It will be in caps, and I would have been calling you the Moron).

I am pointing out that your immediate response was.. if your not against it.. as you stated "does that mean you think it's a good thing?"... No middle ground.. for or against.


OK, if moron is your word, and not mine, why would you write - "You'll find that people are more willing to listen to your points of view if you do not try and ram it down their throats, or call them morons for not obviously not believing absolutely everything only one side says." I have an idea why you'd write it. It's the old, tired tactic of distorting my words to try and paint me as unreasonable and therefore, by extension, try and discredit the idea that AGW is a serious problem that requires our attention. It gets old real quick and I doubt that you're fooling anyone except for those already in your choir.

I also can't understand why you take issue with my writing "If you're not an opponent of AGW, does that mean you think it's a good thing?" I really don't know what folks mean when they say they are in favor or not in favor of AGW. AGW refers to an increase in global temperatures caused by human activity. If you say that you're not an opponent of AGW, sounds to me like you're in favor of increasing global temps. That sounds strange to me and that's why I questioned it. It's a whole different thing than saying that you believe (or not) that temps are going up and humans are largely responsible.

Finally, the Swiss are known for neutrality, not finding the middle ground, per se. That's neutrality as in staying out of things that don't concern them. You may want to think about that.

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ROFLMAO
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252. Skyepony :)

Quoting Skyepony:
Ya'll don't just talk about it...ya gotta use the stir stick..

Doesn't look at all like an ostrich, but perhaps they sing the same song??

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I like this quote from the ostrich article:

Information about climate change is deeply disturbing. It threatens our sense of individual identity and our trust in our government's ability to respond.

Don't know if that's true or not, but it is an interesting comment.
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nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnng, bite my tongue

Aye, they may be strange men, too. With a stir stick, no less.
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252. Skyepony (Mod)
Ya'll don't just talk about it...ya gotta use the stir stick..& how about to beat off the likes of these..

(click pic for article)


Member Since: August 10, 2005 Posts: 173 Comments: 38141
The 24 th is Fat Tuesday Mardi Gras Day..

But the Parades started in Earnest last week,and esp today.

nola.com for all the Mardi Gras info.Link


ParadeCam: Live Carnival parades on St. Charles Avenue

See the krewes of Carrollton and King Arthur roll along the Uptown route today

Last Nights Photos Link
Member Since: July 3, 2005 Posts: 426 Comments: 128636
Quoting Patrap:
Parade Cam, St. Charles Ave Link

River Cam Link

Bourbon St. Cam Link


Is this tuesday Fat Tuesday?
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Quoting Skyepony:
Clean coal doesn't exist...the major coal companies just put out a 500 million dollar ad campain with cute coal charactors to convince you it is getting cleaner all the time. Here's an article complete with you tubes of the critters that wanna make ya level a mountain top to set them free.. Kinda remind you of Joe Camel?

The coal companies want you to support clean coal so they can get money from the govt to develop it & continue leveling mountains, flooding valleys with toxins. In many ways we need off coal more than oil.


LOL I heard about that... one of their ads featured "Frosty the Coalman" LOL
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248. Skyepony (Mod)
Clean coal doesn't exist...the major coal companies just put out a 500 million dollar ad campain with cute coal charactors to convince you it is getting cleaner all the time. Here's an article complete with you tubes of the critters that wanna make ya level a mountain top to set them free.. Kinda remind you of Joe Camel?

The coal companies want you to support clean coal so they can get money from the govt to develop it & continue leveling mountains, flooding valleys with toxins. In many ways we need off coal more than oil.
Member Since: August 10, 2005 Posts: 173 Comments: 38141
Parade Cam, St. Charles Ave Link

River Cam Link

Bourbon St. Cam Link
Member Since: July 3, 2005 Posts: 426 Comments: 128636
Quoting KEHCharleston:
Practicing for Lent - giving up the stir stick.


All right.. who are you.. and how did you get his password???
Member Since: October 1, 2007 Posts: 81 Comments: 26511
Quoting Orcasystems:


Well, I have not seen you using it, so I borrowed it for a remark or two :)
Practicing for Lent - giving up the stir stick.
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Quoting KEHCharleston:

(smirk) Having fun with the stir stick, I see


Well, I have not seen you using it, so I borrowed it for a remark or two :)
Member Since: October 1, 2007 Posts: 81 Comments: 26511
Quoting JeffMasters:


Darn it, Orca, go ahead and ruin all my fun...


ROFLMAO, he didn't actually say that... I changed the quoting thing for a joke... so I don't get sued and whatnot... but I killed it in the meantime...*sigh*
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Quoting Orcasystems:


I'm sure he writes up a blog like that... laughs his butt off know the responses he will get, grabs a dozen beer and sits back to watche.


I'll make sure to stay off the roads for a while... he lives pretty close to me...
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Quoting Orcasystems:


Ahhhh you know me.. occasionally I have to point out there is a middle of the road :) Its the Swiss/Canadian in me coming out.. you know.. the Peace Keeper.

(smirk) Having fun with the stir stick, I see
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sometimes i think the doc does just for badness
ya your proably right sits back and enjoys the show
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Quoting KEEPEROFTHEGATE:
ya i know the doc provides the dead horse and we got a lot that like to beat it with a stick to make sure its dead



I'm sure he writes up a blog like that... laughs his butt off know the responses he will get, grabs a dozen beer and sits back to watche.
Member Since: October 1, 2007 Posts: 81 Comments: 26511

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Jeff co-founded the Weather Underground in 1995 while working on his Ph.D. He flew with the NOAA Hurricane Hunters from 1986-1990.