Geoengineering: a bad idea whose time may come

By: Dr. Jeff Masters , 3:46 PM GMT on December 19, 2008

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Yesterday, at the annual meeting of the American Geophysical Union (AGU), climate change scientists discussed the risks and benefits of deliberately altering Earth's climate through "geoengineering". One measure of the concern scientists have about Earth's climate could be gauged by the standing-room only crowd of 200 that packed the presentation room. The eleven speakers at the session laid out some radical and dangerous ideas for deliberately altering Earth's climate. They uniformly cautioned that the uncertainties and dangers of implementing any of these schemes was high, but that geoengineering may be necessary if efforts to control greenhouse gases fail and the climate begins to undergo rapid and destructive changes.

David Keith presented the results of a week-long workshop held earlier this year that brought together ten of the world's experts on geoengineering. He emphasized that even if we stopped emitting CO2 today, the possibility of dangerous climate change capable of causing a "climate emergency" may still be higher than 1%, thanks to the tremendous inertia of the heat stored in the oceans. Of course, we're not going to stop emitting CO2 today. Dealing with a future climate emergency is technically feasible, if we inject large quantities of sulfur into the tropical stratosphere via aircraft, artillery, or tethered balloons with hoses. Sulfur injection into the stratosphere is considered to be the leading candidate for geoengineering, since nature has done this many times via volcanic eruptions, and we have some idea of what to expect. As I reported in a blog post earlier this year, the idea is being championed by Nobel prize-winning atmospheric chemist Paul Crutzen.

One problem with injecting sulfur into the stratosphere is that it tends to settle back to the surface in about ten months. A. V. Eliseev explained that in order to keep global temperatures under control in a world with ever-increasing CO2 emissions, we would have to inject an ever increasing amount of sulfur into the atmosphere. His computer model results showed that if a funding lapse occurred in, say, the year 2075, the atmosphere would rapidly warm by 5-9°F (3-5°C) over most of North America, Europe, and Asia, within a decade of cessation of the geoengineering efforts. The resulting shock to ecosystems would be extremely dangerous to civilization.

Richard Turco of UCLA estimated that injecting enough sulfur in the stratosphere to properly geoengineer the climate would require 3000 aircraft sorties per day, and cost $50-$100 billion per year. Model results he presented showed a large amount of uncertainty as to what might happen, and he cautioned that there was "no guarantee of success, and failure would be catastrophic".

A. Robrock of Rutgers disagreed with Dr. Turco, and estimated that the cost of injecting the required amount of sulfur into the stratosphere would by less that $5 billion per year, provided the U.S. military would let scientists use 167 of the existing fleet of 522 F15C Eagle jets to do the job. After all, he reasoned, why wouldn't the military want to use their aircraft to confront our enemy (global warming?) High-altitude fighter jets would be required to do the job, since ordinary jetliners cannot fly high enough to penetrate into the stratosphere. He cautioned that such a fleet of aircraft would have to fly three missions per day, and their exhaust gases would probably cause significant destruction of Earth's protective ozone layer. Furthermore, modeling studies show that we don't know what size particles to make, where to put the sulfur, and what uneven effects the efforts might have on Earth's climate. He concluded, "there are many reasons not to do geoengineering".

A more ecological approach to geoengineering was presented by Phil Rasch of Pacific Northwest National Laboratory, and by Jim Haywood of Britain's Met Office Hadley Center. They proposed building a fleet of wind-powered ships known as Fletter vessels (Figure 1) that would spray large amounts of sea salt into the air in regions where there are existing stratocumulus clouds. The sea salt would act as nuclei around which moisture could condense, making the clouds more reflective. A fleet of approximately 66 of these vessels would be required to seed the clouds over 30% of the globe, to balance a doubling of atmospheric carbon dioxide. However, they cautioned that while this solution would be relatively cheap, the technology to implement this scheme would be difficult. Furthermore, studies performed with climate models showed that the resulting climate shift would not be uniform, and many areas would experience drought. In particular, Dr. Haywood showed the possibility of severe drought in the Amazon rain forest and in the Southwest U.S.


Figure 1. A conceptual picture of Flettner spray vessel with Thom fences. These wind-driven vessels have vertical spinning cylinders that use the Magnus effect to produce forces perpendicular to the wind direction. Anton Flettner built a ship using this technology that crossed the Atlantic in 1926. The proposed geoengineering Flettner vessels would sail over ocean regions covered with stratocumulus clouds and make the existing clouds whiter by spraying small salt particles into the air. Image is copyright J. MacNeill 2006. For more information on these vessels, see Salter at al., 2008, "Sea-going hardware for the cloud albedo method of reversing global warming", Philosophical Transactions of The Royal Society A, 366, Number 1882, pp3989-4006, 13 November 2008.

Katharine Ricke of Carnagie Mellon University cautioned that the foreign policy community has virtually no awareness of geoengineering issues, and would be totally unprepared for the possibility of some country deciding to unilaterally attempt a geoengineering program on their own. She suggested that an effort needs to be made to promote international agreements on geoengineering, perhaps including binding treaties.

Jeff Masters

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Hey, HGW.

I was thinking it highly likely Billy would ride the waves again. Wonder if BoM has a graphic showing the ridge location and possible movement over the next 72 hrs. . .
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330. HadesGodWyvern (Mod)
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329. HadesGodWyvern (Mod)
Tropical Cyclone Advice #27
=====================================

At 9:00 am WDT. Ex-Tropical Cyclone Billy [997 hPa] located at 15.3S 125.9E or 490 kms northeast of Broome and 135 kms southwest of Kalumburu has 10 minute sustained winds of 25 knots with gusts of 45 knots. The tropical low is reported as moving west at 5 knots.

Ex-Tropical Cyclone Billy is moving across the Kimberley and is expected to move off the coast Sunday night or early Monday, then redevelop into a tropical cyclone. Gales may develop between Kalumburu and Beagle Bay overnight or during Monday and may extend down the coast to Broome and Wallal late on Monday or Tuesday.

Tropical Cyclone Watches/Warnings
===============================
A Cyclone WARNING is current for coastal and island communities from Kalumburu to Beagle Bay.

A Cyclone WATCH is current for coastal areas from Beagle Bay to Wallal.

Tropical Cyclone Technical Bulletin
===================================
12 HRS: 15.3S 125.2E - 25 knots (TROPICAL LOW)
24 hRS: 15.3S 124.3E - 30 knots (TROPICAL LOW)
48 HRS: 16.0S 121.8E - 50 knots (CAT 2)
72 HRS: 17.6S 118.9E - 70 knots (CAT 3)

REMARKS:
EX TC Billy continues to track steadily to the west over the north Kimberley. The system has retained excellent structure over land. It is expected to remain in a low shear environment and should redevelop quickly on Monday as it moves offshore into an area of favourable SSTs. NWP is now analysing a stronger mid level ridge to the south, which is confirmed
by the observations and the models maintain the strength of the ridge through the next four days, keeping the system on a more westerly track. However the possibility of a coastal landfall is still significant. The UK vortex tracker output for the 201200UTC run appears significantly different to the track obtained by subjectively assessing the vorticity and wind fields.

Billy may become a severe tropical cyclone by Monday/Tuesday.
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328. Skyepony (Mod)
Another AGU this was a NASA presentation.

New Satellite Data Reveal Impact of Olympic Pollution Controls
In contrast, levels of nitrogen dioxide (NO2) plunged nearly 50 percent in and around Beijing in August 2008 after officials instituted strict traffic restrictions in preparation for the Olympic Games. Credit: NASA
> Larger image Chinese government regulators had clearer skies and easier breathing in mind in the summer of 2008 when they temporarily shuttered some factories and banished many cars in a pre-Olympic sprint to clean up Beijing’s air. And that's what they got.

They were not necessarily planning for something else: an unprecedented experiment using satellites to measure the impact of air pollution controls. Taking advantage of the opportunity, NASA researchers have since analyzed data from NASA's Aura and Terra satellites that show how key pollutants responded to the Olympic restrictions.

According to atmospheric scientist Jacquelyn Witte and colleagues from NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center in Greenbelt, Md., the emission restrictions had an unmistakable impact. During the two months when restrictions were in place, the levels of nitrogen dioxide (NO2) -- a noxious gas resulting from fossil fuel combustion (primarily in cars, trucks, and power plants) -- plunged nearly 50 percent. Likewise, levels of carbon monoxide (CO) fell about 20 percent.

Witte presented the results on behalf of the team on Dec. 16 at the fall meeting of the American Geophysical Union in San Francisco.
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Evening all. Dropped in for a looksee. Interesting stuff I guess.

LOL Baha - "Tower of Babel". Amen to that!
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326. Skyepony (Mod)
Here's another one from the AGU..
The frequency of extremely high clouds in Earth's tropics -- the type associated with severe storms and rainfall -- is increasing as a result of global warming, according to a study by scientists at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, Calif.

In a presentation yesterday to the fall meeting of the American Geophysical Union in San Francisco, JPL Senior Research Scientist Hartmut Aumann outlined the results of a study based on five years of data from the Atmospheric Infrared Sounder (AIRS) instrument on NASA's Aqua spacecraft. The AIRS data were used to observe certain types of tropical clouds linked with severe storms, torrential rain and hail. The instrument typically detects about 6,000 of these clouds each day. Aumann and his team found a strong correlation between the frequency of these clouds and seasonal variations in the average sea surface temperature of the tropical oceans.

For every degree Centigrade (1.8 degrees Fahrenheit) increase in average ocean surface temperature, the team observed a 45-percent increase in the frequency of the very high clouds. At the present rate of global warming of 0.13 degrees Celsius (0.23 degrees Fahrenheit) per decade, the team inferred the frequency of these storms can be expected to increase by six percent per decade.

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Evening everybody. Just poking my head in after a [well deserved] break from the 'puter. U know when the BLOG starts to feel like work, it's time to take a break!

Quoting norcalengineer:
God help us when we humans grow such an ego that we start forcibly changing Earth's climate! Regardless of what we think, we are only able to truly study a tiny fraction of the Earth's atmospheric history. We have no business trying to force it one way or another. How do we know the Earth isn't supposed to warm up?
Last major "bioengineering" project I remember man attempting collectively was the Tower of Babel. . . . lol There is some warning in the religious literature about man[kind] figuring he can control stuff that he really can't, with assorted consequences.

OTOH, a lot of what we consider today as part of normal, average life could in some sense be considered human manipulation of the planet.

My concern is less whether or not humans can affect the planet; it's more can we genuinely conceive of the consequences of doing so. The point that came across most strongly from the doc's summation of the session is that most commenters seemed as concerned about the negative consequences of the engineering as they did about the potential positive outcomes.
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324. DDR
Snow in the usa,while im here in Trinidad (11n,61w)its been rain since thursday,5 inches at my location localised flooding in other areas.
Member Since: April 27, 2007 Posts: 14 Comments: 1726
Quoting melwerle:
Have to just post for a second before I go eat dinner and I'm sorry to irritate anyone that is sitting in the snow right now.

WHAT A GORGEOUS DAY here today (press, you can appreciate this!). 78 degrees, PERFECT wind, sunshine and a full day on the water racing. Couldn't REQUEST a better day than this (sans the gnats when we pulled into the dock). Days like this make it almost easier to bear the 100 degree weather we have here in August. When we go back to San Diego, hopefully we will learn not to take the perfect weather for granted. Exquisite afternoon. I don't know how we did in the race with points being sorted out but I really didn't care.

Anywho...hope all of you who are freezing, thaw out soon and that the temps warm up a bit for you so it's tolerable. We DO miss having a white Christmas though - doesn't seem the same when you are wearing shorts and a tshirt.

Be safe.


78 is too hot for December. I'm glad you like it, but I'd rather be sitting in snow...
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Quoting moonlightcowboy:
273. KEEPEROFTHEGATE 11:32 PM CST ...thats the funny thing with nature its normally big when it happens

Yeah, but it's a natural thing. It's happened many times through the earth's history. And, man's role has been and still is insignificant comparatively.

ACO2 or whether we were here or not at all even, the Earth would still keep on doing what it's been doing in its cycles and maturation for 1000's of years. Man is just simply along for the ride as long as it lasts.


Man may be pitiably small, but not entirely powerless. Scientific inquiry is powerful, which is why the AGU panel was truly interesting (I was there too)
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Quoting CybrTeddy:


Self Sustaining, NASA's Engineers have discovered a way to convert the dirt on the moon into pure and clean H20, 02, and they will bring plant life to the base. All and all, seems like a pretty good deal.

you're kidding right that's amazing
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Have to just post for a second before I go eat dinner and I'm sorry to irritate anyone that is sitting in the snow right now.

WHAT A GORGEOUS DAY here today (press, you can appreciate this!). 78 degrees, PERFECT wind, sunshine and a full day on the water racing. Couldn't REQUEST a better day than this (sans the gnats when we pulled into the dock). Days like this make it almost easier to bear the 100 degree weather we have here in August. When we go back to San Diego, hopefully we will learn not to take the perfect weather for granted. Exquisite afternoon. I don't know how we did in the race with points being sorted out but I really didn't care.

Anywho...hope all of you who are freezing, thaw out soon and that the temps warm up a bit for you so it's tolerable. We DO miss having a white Christmas though - doesn't seem the same when you are wearing shorts and a tshirt.

Be safe.
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Quoting all4hurricanes:

seems optimistic but interesting. Will it be self sustaining or will there need to be regular supply visits, because that would be expensive.


Self Sustaining, NASA's Engineers have discovered a way to convert the dirt on the moon into pure and clean H20, 02, and they will bring plant life to the base. All and all, seems like a pretty good deal.
Member Since: July 8, 2005 Posts: 259 Comments: 24553
Quoting presslord:
In Science Choices, Obama Signals ChangeBy HOPE YEN, AP
(Dec. 20) - President-elect Barack Obama on Saturday named a Harvard physicist and a marine biologist to science posts, signaling a change from Bush administration policies on global warming that were criticized for putting politics over science.

Both John Holdren and Jane Lubchenco are leading experts on climate change who have advocated forceful government response. Holdren will become Obama's science adviser as director of the White House Office of Science and Technology Policy; Lubchenco will lead the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, which oversees ocean and atmospheric studies and does much of the government's research on global warming.


Those marine biologists are pretty smart I hear... ;-)
Member Since: September 20, 2005 Posts: 31 Comments: 2309
317. JFDC
LET THE EARTH DO WHAT IT WANTS TO DO. OVER HISTORY THE EARTH HAS GONE THROUGH MANY CLIMATE CHANGES,AND MAN HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH IT.
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Afternoon all

The Christmas party for the residents of Bridge City has started and after spending all day working on the webcam it is now back up and running! Hope y'all will join us in chat and watch the feed.
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Quoting CybrTeddy:


2020ish, NASA's going to put a Lunar base on the Moon named 'Armstrong'.

seems optimistic but interesting. Will it be self sustaining or will there need to be regular supply visits, because that would be expensive.
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Quoting AstroHurricane001:

LOL, it looks like this will be a problem. Usually when a big storm hits we stay indoors until the storm passes then we get out the shovels and snowblowers. Looks like with this storm, if it happens, some people may have to shovel their ROOFS.
Yeah, I guess storms are storms. Hurricanes drive me indoors also. Except when we go back outside we take a chainsaw instead of a shovel...LOL
Stay safe...
Member Since: September 11, 2008 Posts: 9 Comments: 10148
Quoting theshepherd:
311 astro
LOL...no thank you,Sir.
Do ya'll(southern roots evident) have generators like we do down here?
Can't fathom your daily lifestyle...lol

LOL, it looks like this will be a problem. Usually when a big storm hits we stay indoors until the storm passes then we get out the shovels and snowblowers. Looks like with this storm, if it happens, some people may have to shovel their ROOFS.
Member Since: August 30, 2008 Posts: 8 Comments: 2835
311 astro
LOL...no thank you,Sir.
Do ya'll(southern roots evident) have generators like we do down here?
Can't fathom your daily lifestyle...lol
Member Since: September 11, 2008 Posts: 9 Comments: 10148
Woah! Talk about snowmageddon! Not only are we supposed to see over 50 cm of snow by Christmas in S. Ontario, it looks like according to the long-range forecast there will be a gargantuan winter storm next Saturday, perhaps bringing our snow on the ground to over 100 cm by the end of the year! Just think of any town or city in southern Ontario, and search for it in this website: Link. A catastrophic scenario is depicted for every locale, be it half a metre of snow in one day, over a centimetre of freezing rain, or rain/snow mixed that threatens to freeze over and collapse every roof. Travel would be impossible! Schools would be cancelled for the first time in years in some places! This storm would be worthy of a Wikipedia article! I only looked at a few locations, and more than likely the forecast will change. That's still pretty scary, though. Please take a look. LOL, better make that snowman 14-ft!
Member Since: August 30, 2008 Posts: 8 Comments: 2835
Quoting CybrTeddy:


That doesn't mean we shouldn't have the spirit of Exploration in us. There's always been those, look in the 60's and 70's, Vietnam, watergate,'Global Cooling' ect. Yet we landed a man on the moon.
CT I agree with the spirit of exploration completely and am saddened when I think of putting such adventure back on the shelf until times are better. I must budget my own priority based lifestyle and I think Gov't should do the same.
NASA has at arms length brilliant creative scientist and designers who proceed in an orderly purpose driven team work enviroment.
I have all confidence they could develop the battery needed to make electric vehicles that desperately need this power source affordable and reliable. Some of these new cars as I'm sure you know are amazing in performance but the 2 to 3 hundred pound trunkfull of lithium batteries makes them somewhat unrealistic.
LOL...Give me my battery and I'll be the first to join your passion.
Member Since: September 11, 2008 Posts: 9 Comments: 10148
Injured Yachtsman Rescued on High Seas CNN
(Dec. 20) -- A French yachtsman badly injured during the Vendee Globe solo round-the-world race was rescued Saturday by an Australian Navy ship around 850 miles south of Perth.

The frigate HMAS Arunta had been dispatched to rescue Yann Elies after he broke his left leg on Thursday when his boat, the Generali, slammed into a wave, knocking him into the deck.
He had managed to drag himself back into the 18-meter vessel's cabin but had been unable to reach any painkillers, food or water. Race officials had classed Elies as being in a life-threatening condition.

Two crew members transferred Elies aboard the Arunta earlier Saturday, according to the Vendee Globe Web site.
Fellow competitor Marc Guillemot, who monitored the rescue after changing course to check on Elies' condition and provide radio support, said the operation had been executed flawlessly.
"Some highly professional work. They prepared Yann for the transfer. Still heavy swell but they carried out maneuver perfectly. Yann is now aboard the frigate and has a doctor taking care of him," Guillemot reported.

"It was like a dream. It didn't seem real. They took care of that magnificently."

The Arunta's commanding officer, Commander Stephen Bowater said his crew has displayed exceptional professionalism during the operation to reach the French sailor.
Member Since: August 13, 2007 Posts: 0 Comments: 10492
Quoting theshepherd:
LOL...Can you elaborate on why this is considered considering current global crisis? Global climate, bailouts, desease, public safety, energy alternative studies?


That doesn't mean we shouldn't have the spirit of Exploration in us. There's always been those, look in the 60's and 70's, Vietnam, watergate,'Global Cooling' ect. Yet we landed a man on the moon.
Member Since: July 8, 2005 Posts: 259 Comments: 24553
Quoting CybrTeddy:


2020ish, NASA's going to put a Lunar base on the Moon named 'Armstrong'.
LOL...Can you elaborate on why this is considered considering current global crisis? Global climate, bailouts, desease, public safety, energy alternative studies?
Member Since: September 11, 2008 Posts: 9 Comments: 10148
Quoting all4hurricanes:

I don't know if we can even develop a colony on another planet/moon none so far come close to supporting life. and I don't think we can develop enough technology that would make it possible much less carry that technology there. I'm not discouraging it, the space program is the only hope of humans surviving past the sun explosion. But for the time being there are more important issues.


2020ish, NASA's going to put a Lunar base on the Moon named 'Armstrong'.
Member Since: July 8, 2005 Posts: 259 Comments: 24553
By the Holy FSM, these bozos really don't know anything but "bigger hammer" solutions, do they?
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Looks like Florida's winter is over. After colder than average temps from late Oct. through early Dec., high pressure is here to stay blocking any cold air from here whatsoever.
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It's gonna snow here tomorrow...this may bring my total for this winter above 10 inches. 6.9 inches have fallen IMBY so far.





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Quoting CybrTeddy:


Just hope the new President doesn't do anything to mess up the Space Program like Bill Clinton did.

I don't know if we can even develop a colony on another planet/moon none so far come close to supporting life. and I don't think we can develop enough technology that would make it possible much less carry that technology there. I'm not discouraging it, the space program is the only hope of humans surviving past the sun explosion. But for the time being there are more important issues.
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In Science Choices, Obama Signals ChangeBy HOPE YEN, AP
(Dec. 20) - President-elect Barack Obama on Saturday named a Harvard physicist and a marine biologist to science posts, signaling a change from Bush administration policies on global warming that were criticized for putting politics over science.

Both John Holdren and Jane Lubchenco are leading experts on climate change who have advocated forceful government response. Holdren will become Obama's science adviser as director of the White House Office of Science and Technology Policy; Lubchenco will lead the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, which oversees ocean and atmospheric studies and does much of the government's research on global warming.
Member Since: August 13, 2007 Posts: 0 Comments: 10492
Quoting all4hurricanes:

I always figured that people would cause the end of the world. We can't really add so much pollution and greenhouse gas and expect it to do nothing to harm the earth. And people in general are way to stubborn to stop and eventually we're going to reach a tipping point or point of no return. So it is really just a matter of time and whether we can destroy ourselves before the solar system does.


Just hope the new President doesn't do anything to mess up the Space Program like Bill Clinton did.
Member Since: July 8, 2005 Posts: 259 Comments: 24553
The one reason we will never see eye to eye is I don’t trust the numbers you present and you don’t trust the numbers I present. And like I said, that is fine we need debate. The sea level rising has slowed or stopped over the last couple years, which is in contradiction to the GW theories. The pro GW “scientists’” have changed the algorithms they use to calculate the atmospheric temperature. Yes they state a reason for it, the satellite orbits are affecting them, but do I trust the new number? It also may be wrong. Everyone has their biases and mistakes.
We have problems with urban heat effect, affecting our land based temperature recorders and have not had large numbers of ocean based recorders for any considerable period of time. Fact the sun has cycles that affect our planet. Fact the earth has its own cycles of ocean currents and jet stream movements that affect our climate. Fact climate is forever changing.
The world glaciers are not melting anymore but are actually growing. Maybe just a short term trend but none the less this is not part of the GW theory. What is great about GW is we can blame all extreme weather on it. It’s funny that Antarctica has been cooling and the snow and ice down there has been accumulating but the GWers will say that is part of the GW theory.
Fact scientist were saying that the summer of 2008 would have less ice in the Artic then 2007. This did not happen. We are now about half way between 2007 and the 30 year average. The Northwest Passage was navigated by Roald Amundsen in 1903–1906.
Since the Middle Ages warm period the earth has warmed 0.8 degrees c that is roughly 0.1 c every century. If you stop the graph this year the warming may be less than the .8 which is a conservative number based on data that may be in urban heat spots. The GWers will say that it was warm in Europe, but other places were cold. That also sounds just like GW today. Not everywhere is warm or cold or in between. That is climate for you. There are holes in every theory but GW looks more like Swiss cheese to me.
No one can argue the earth has not warmed up over the last 50 years or the last hundred or thousand. And then again we may have peaked until next time and are on the way down the other side of the graph.

Time to go boating and enjoy this warm weather :-)
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I think these guy's at the AGU should have a psycological exam. These people are to funny, really. They should put their over-sized brains together and think of ways to adapt to what our climate cycles are giving us . I mean if their seriious about "changing " the climate to "normal" whatever the hell that is , why not just drop a bunker buster down the throat of pick your volcano, then boom , the fallout blocks the sun for a couple years , we get our precious ice back in no-where land and Algore can give the OK to quit worrying about a non-existant problem. Case closed. Your welcome.
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Yup...snowmageddon is coming to S. Ontario. We have about 25 cm (10 in) of snow on the ground, and more is on the way. Looking at the weather forecast, it appears there will be about 37 cm (15 in) of snow by Sunday night, and 54 cm (21 in) of snow by Wednesday night. Yikes! Already yesterday we had snowdrifts 2 feet high and snowbanks 4 feet high. It appears we could soon have 7 foot snow banks. A 12-ft snowman is just the answer to that problem! LOL. Packing snow likely for Wednesday, and with half a metre of snow on the ground, that doesn't look too difficult (I'm tall enough). Anybody else getting snowstorms in the next week?
Member Since: August 30, 2008 Posts: 8 Comments: 2835
Quoting barryweather:
#257 Do you feel that we should curtail our use of fossil fuel and petroleum products?


Yes! It is a dirty substance. But it currently still has it's uses. My main problem is the idea of carbon taxes and credits. But if it cleans the air I breath and the water I drink I can live with it.
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Quoting CybrTeddy:
Well my best guess the Earth in many years to come will become inhabitable (due to Global Warming, A hot war, ect) and we should Terraform Mars and place Bases on other places in the Solar System, hence why the Space Program is so important.

I always figured that people would cause the end of the world. We can't really add so much pollution and greenhouse gas and expect it to do nothing to harm the earth. And people in general are way to stubborn to stop and eventually we're going to reach a tipping point or point of no return. So it is really just a matter of time and whether we can destroy ourselves before the solar system does.
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hmm...supposed to sail today and looking outside it doesn't look like there is ANY wind to race. Possibly another weekend of tying up with the other boats out in the middle of the river? Ugh...

Hope everyone is well...merry christmas/happy hannukah...
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Good morning everyone,
I'm at work.. last day for 2 weeks! YIPEE..

I will try to watch the Christmas Party webcam but from work sometimes I am not able to get it..but willturn it on when I get home.


Good luck at the party!!!

Everyone here have a great Saturday!
Member Since: August 29, 2005 Posts: 301 Comments: 40945
Well my best guess the Earth in many years to come will become inhabitable (due to Global Warming, A hot war, ect) and we should Terraform Mars and place Bases on other places in the Solar System, hence why the Space Program is so important.
Member Since: July 8, 2005 Posts: 259 Comments: 24553
Morning All, Great day on tap here in zephyrhills FL. Right now 55 and some fog but later 80 and sunshine. Have a great day!!!
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WU is confusing me it says tomorrow 100% chance of rain and then a sun with a cloud so I don't know which is right
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Good Morning.
It is a Glorious one.
Sun is shining bright, birds are squabbling on the feeder, dogs are lying on the warm tile of the patio.
I intend to do very little today.
Member Since: October 24, 2005 Posts: 0 Comments: 24802
Quoting presslord:
hi gang!!!!!!!! Don't forget to check out the Christmas party lve at www.portlight.org this afternoon....


Already camped there ;)
Member Since: August 23, 2008 Posts: 7 Comments: 5300
and, btw.....What are we all doing up this early on a Saturday?!?!?!?!?!
Member Since: August 13, 2007 Posts: 0 Comments: 10492
hi gang!!!!!!!! Don't forget to check out the Christmas party lve at www.portlight.org this afternoon....
Member Since: August 13, 2007 Posts: 0 Comments: 10492
Mornin' Vort. How's things on your side of the pond?
Member Since: August 23, 2008 Posts: 7 Comments: 5300

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Jeff co-founded the Weather Underground in 1995 while working on his Ph.D. He flew with the NOAA Hurricane Hunters from 1986-1990.

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